This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

[marleymouse]

I realise this may be a petty subject to some but a couple have split and are in dispute over who has the dog, the circumstances are as follows...

A young man was gifted a staffie pup & a carefree 5yrs later he met a girl they set up home. As 'mum & dad' they both adored the dog only now the girl took responsibility & to date has ensured the dog had a previously lacking healthy diet & regular vet checks.

5yrs later their relationship amicably failed, the property lease ended & they both moved in with her family home whilst seeking new accommodation to share platonically with 'their' beloved dog. However under no pressure to leave the man chose to move to accommodation on his own that did not allow dogs & left the dog (by then aged 9) behind with the girl who continued to solely pay for the dogs food & vet care with no financial help whatsoever from the man. The couple remained friends & he has regularly visited & occasionally walked the dog.

After 18months of making no attempt to change the dogs lifestyle or expressing any desire to do so he is moving away & is demanding she hands over the dog who is now 12yrs old & has arthritis, his claim is she was his dog before he ever met her. The girl is devastated & is refusing his demands saying she has been the dogs 'mum' for 7yrs & he is being selfish wanting to uproot this now elderly dog her from the loving & secure home she has.
They have no children & clearly they both adore this dog but the dog currently enjoys a garden & home she knows & loves surrounded by extended family who love her, everything is familiar, secure & permanent (she would never have move anywhere without the dog). With him there will be an air of uncertainty, everything new & she will be left while he works all of which seems unfair at her time of life. She genuinely loves the dog & he has never bothered to seek a home where he could have a dog nor has he contributed to her food or vet care.

Now she is being harassed by his friends & family to give over the dog to him both by people coming to her house & on social media saying she has stolen the dog, even contacting her place of work. She is a lovely person & does not deserve this, she has lots of proof and witnesses to everything & has made no attempt to retaliate but she is heartbroken. He phoned the police saying she had stolen it but she has receipts for food, vet bills and even texts proving the dog has lived with her alone for the last 18 months. The police have said it is a civil matter & they will not take the dog off her but they cannot stop people coming to her door or saying things on social media because of freedom of speech.

He has not seen the dog now for over 6 weeks & it looks likely the only resolution may be through court but where does she legally stand on this? Does the fact he had the dog initially stand after all this time & did he not abandon the dog when he moved where he could not have her 18months ago & stayed there. It is definitely not about the money but he has contributed nothing towards the dogs care or food, he does work & the latest vet fee was £150, how can he claim the dog is his? She has been given conflicting advice from various police officers & other sources...some saying it was his dog initially & still is to others saying he abandoned the dog when he chose to move to 'no dog' accommodation & didn't contribute to her care. Ultimately it should be whatever is best for the elderly dog but either way one or the other will have to give her up.

Please can anyone advise on the legal aspects? x

[judgemental24]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

The dog believe it or not is classed as property.

In this case i can see the owner of the dog being the person who has cared for its welfare for the last 18 months

Tell him to get stuffed, the dog has a loving home and it will be wrong to put the poor animal through such stress at his age and condition

[des8]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

Whilst I agree the best interest of "pooch" would be to remain where he is, as J says the dog is classed as property and the current possessor would have to show ownership had been surrendered to her. Just acting as bailee does not show transfer of ownership.
On the other hand a sympathetic court could rule that the dog's welfare would suffer by removal from its present home and rule in favour of the girl retaining possession.
A judgement of Solomon is needed, IF he is ever to try court which IMO seems unlikely.

[marleymouse]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

She has receipts for vet fees & food. The vet can confirm she has been the only one ever taking the dog to them & will confirm her care of the dogs welfare. There are text between him & her where she is asking him to look after the dog while she goes away & on occasions asking him to walk her but he has consistantly turned her down. His landlord would not give him permission to have a dog & initially the girl encouraged him to seek alternative accommodation so he could share her care but he refused. This is all evidence of his lack of provision for the dog & his casual indifference to perminant contact with it over the past 18 months.

It is only now that he wants to move away that he is suddenly showing a keen interest in the dog. The girl has been the dogs 'mum' & perminantly in its life for 7years now & she has had lived with her alone for the last 18 months, does this not override the fact that he initially owned it before he met the girl.

If he takes her to court is he likely to win? If he does win will she be entitled to claim for the dogs boarding etc. for the past 18months? Its not about the money but could that carry any weight in the case to use against him? Please can anyone advise how to handle the court process, the poor girl is heartbroken & worried sick he will snatch the dog from her. Should she initiate action to get the dogs future finalised for the poor dogs sake?

Has anyone got experience of this type of court case please?

[judgemental24]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

I myself would call his bluff and say "Take me to court"

In very much doubt that will happen. If he has shown no interest in the welfare of the dog including vet bills so far i doubt he will cough up court fees

[marleymouse]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

How much might court fees be for this type of case & if she loses would she have to pay costs?

[judgemental24]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

I am not sure on fees as this is not a money claim

You are seeking an order from the court


At a guess, and only a guess, £155.00 application fee he will have to pay, it will then go in front of a judge and he will decide on the evidence presented by both parties

I very much doubt you will even have to go to court for a hearing as it will be decided by the judge in his chambers. I very much doubt costs will be applicable in this case as well. It is usual for the looser to pay the other sides costs (£155.00) but this is different

I am unsure on this as it is not a money claim so wait for more replies

[des8]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

In law, a dog is regarded as a ‘chattel’, ie an item that is owned.
In the event of a dispute on who should have custody, the court will consider who is the dog’s owner
Such a case is likely to be heard in the small claims court.
The court will have regard to many factors including who bought the dog, whose name is registered with the Kennel Club, and who is the one who actually looks after it.
A court may simply decide that the dog is jointly owned and in the absence of an agreement on who should have it, may order that the dog be sold and the proceeds shared.
Another alternative would be for the court to order shared ownership, so that (for example) each party may have the dog for six months of the year.

Costs will be minimal, but it is pointless trying to guess what the court may decide.
We have only heard your side of the matter, and whilst we have every sympathy for you (and the dog), we simply don't have enough information to second guess a court's decision.

For what it is worth, I doubt the ex will try court.

On a slightly different tack, if she considers she is being harassed (your first post) she could become pro active and report this to the police as an offence under "the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.
Whether or not this would push him into court action, or make him back off as it shows she is not a push over, would be a decision to be made.

[marleymouse]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

The dog is only a mutt and not kennel club registered so no papers. The dog was originally just purchased as a pup off someone who had accidental staffie puppies so not properly or pure bred. Consequently as a now 12 year old spayed staffie bitch she is of no value to anyone other than those who love her & to them she is priceless :0)

With regard to the harassment issue the girl has told the police and has received conflicting advice. Initially the police came round after he made the allegation that the dog had been stolen, this officer quickly established by her paperwork this was not the case and assured her no action would be taken by them & he told the man this also. Subsequently an officer responding to her complaint about the harassment confirmed the man sending people round her home, place of work and making false statements on social media IS harassment & advised her she should not respond but report all incidents to the police. Since then another officer said this information was incorrect because as long as they do not lay hands on her these people are within their rights to do all those things on the grounds they are trying to reclaim their property, that officer said this comes under everyone's freedom of speech. She now feels she has no protection but I understand her boss is writing to him/his family to ask them not to harrass her at work.

I find it difficult to understand how people can keep arriving at her family home demanding the dog and making her feel intimidated, and also posting pictures on social media with comments stating the dog is stolen when the police have stated to him this is not true. Sadly it seems lots of people who don't know her at all have jumped on his bandwagon due to the facts put out there & she has done absolutely nothing to retaliate or defend the comments believing the law would protect her human rights & truth will out but it seems this is not the case.

I realise you people on here have only heard one side too but no-one is denying the man loved the dog but he needs to act fairly for the dogs sake and it has to be in the dogs best interest to stay where she is settled especially at twelve when her time left is realistically limited. It is a sad state of affairs when so many emotions are involved. This poor girls reputation & health is suffering due to all of this, it would be easier to hand the dog over if she did not care, if it was genuinely in the dogs best interest to do so she would definately make that sacrifice.

It is unsettling that the police advice is inconsistent so what does constitute bullying & harassment?

[judgemental24]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

Harassment can be verbal, physical, and emotional

Physical contact is not needed

It is a criminal offence if sustained

British Gas had to pay mega compensation to a women over constant phone calls on debt collection. Ferguson v British Gas

http://www.out-law.com/page-9826

The police are there to uphold the law, not give there own interpretation of that law. That is above there pay-grade and left to the CPS to decide

[Kati]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

It certainly is harassment in my view - https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/di...ut-harassment/

[marleymouse]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

I have now learnt the latter officer who contradicted the previous officer by saying it was not harassment also informed the girl that had he been the officer initially attending he would have treated it as theft because the dog was originally the mans. He quoted as an example that if he gave her a TV then wanted it back after 3years he would be perfectly entitled to take it back & the dog is exactly the same.

I am finding all the police contradictions confusing :0(

[judgemental24]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

Are the two of you married or in a Civil Partnership??

The Court will normally decide this in any divorce/settlement procedure

The court will look at income as well as to who can maintain the dogs future needs and who has devoted more time

If you never married then you have problems. The Court can only decide ownership of a pet on the basis of who paid for it.

This is a Civil matter, not criminal. The the definition of theft is::

A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it;

There has been no dishonest appropriation.

But as sad before, i very much doubt he will take this matter to a court to decide ownership

[marleymouse]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

The couple were never married & he definitely already had the dog before they met :0(

[Kati]

Re: This may be strange topic but I hope someone with animal compassion can advise

I'd personally tell the guy to take a flying leap (and I'm being nice there :lol ... he left the dog with her, proved he wasn't bothered.