Are these Solicitor fees legal??

[randomtypist]

I'm new to this forum and hops that someone will be able to offer me some advice.

My mum sadly passed away in October and my Dad as Executor needs to sort out Probate.

Dad is 88 and has never had to do anything like this before.

I therefore suggested that we speak to the Solicitor who drew up their will 8 years ago to see how much it would cost for him to do it.

I duly made the appointment and we attended a meeting with him before Christmas.

The Solicitor who had drawn up the original will has since died, so one of the other partners (a Senior Solicitor - but we didn't know he was Senior at the time) dealt with our inquiry.

In total the meeting took 90mins and it wasn't until the end the 90mins the Solicitor advised how much it would cost for him to deal with Probate (approx £3500).
I nearly fell off my chair and asked him how much he charged per hour and he advised £210 + Vat..
Dad pretty much told him there and then that there was no way he could afford that so we would probably have to do it ourselves.

Dad suggested that we would probably get a bill from him for his time for that meeting,
I thought we wouldn't because we had gone there for a quote which I didn't think would be chargeable.

I was wrong....Dad was right and he received a bill a couple of weeks ago for £378 including VAT.

Dad wanted to pay it (despite the fact that he's struggling on a pension), because he doesn't want any ill feeling
and this Practice still has the original Will which we need.

Myself and the rest of the family suggested that he shouldn't pay and he eventually, reluctantly agreed.

I duly dropped in a letter to the Practice last week advising that we were surprised to receive a bill.
The reply that has since come back from the Solicitor is very emotive, quite curt and uses an analogy along the lines of:
- if you went along to a dentist for an examination, why would you expect not to pay??

I thought we were going to get a quote for his services.

If I called in a builder to give me a quote for a new extension,

I wouldn't be charged for his time to visit the site compile the quote etc so what is the difference??

If I go to a dentist for an examination, I know I am going to be charged because I know I'm receiving treatment.

At no time were we ever advised that we would be charged for the time we were in his office
and we weren't advised of his hourly rate until the end of the meeting.

As Dad has also pointed out, if he pays the bill, approx £30 of it was time spent when the Solicitor chatted about his lovely family!!!
There is also a note on the invoice about late payments being charged 8% interest which is a bit scary.
Any payment Dad does make is obviously late now.

So, my questions to anyone who may be able to advise are:-

1) Is this bill payable (bearing in mind we were never told that we were being charged for his time or were advised his hourly rate until the end of the meeting)
2) If Dad does have to pay it, is the 8% liable even though he has disputed it within their time scales.

Dad and I both feel that the 90 minutes we spent in his office was excessive. I agree we gained some interesting information about dealing with Probate but we never asked for it and would happily have done without it had we known that every minute we were there talking/listening was costing £4.20!!!!

I'm in unknown territory here so any advice or information would be very gratefully received.
Are we being naive thinking we shouldn't be charged?? If he has to pay it, then so be it, but the rest of us think the Solicitor is acting very unprofessionally.

Thank you for reading my post.

[Eloise01]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

I'm sorry but yes, I think you are being a little naive to think that a solicitor wouldn't charge you for their services. It doesn't take 90 minutes to ask how much it costs and get an answer, so you must have had quite a detailed conversation about something else, and I am afraid that lawyers do not often come free of charge. I do think that the practice should have been more transparent about their costs, but I would have to check up (and it's late, I'll have to do this tomorrow if nobody else here knows the answer) whether they are required to advise you of costs in advance. I certainly am not so required - but I do. But I am also not a solicitor, so I would have to check on their regulations. And I do think you ought to have asked before booking an appointment, so at best there is fault on both sides here.

And (a) your solicitor isn't a "builder", (b) not all craftsmen provide free quotes (for future reference, a trademans who doesn't state that the quote is free should not be assumed to be free) and (c) the best craftsmen don't provide free quotes - they charge you for their time because time is money. Not being funny about that - but assuming something is free that you haven't ascertained is actually free is a dangerous way to go about things!

[gravytrain]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

Totally disagree.
If you go to any other professional for a consultation.
Private medical practitioner for instance, they state quite clearly what their hourly rate is.
The Internet is full of solicitors offering free service, or no win no fee but in reality the service is rarely so.( not in all cases of course).

[gravytrain]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

Came across this, quite informative:

http://www.rcsolicitors.co.uk/solici...ors/2010-2.htm

[Eloise01]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

These are guidelines used by courts to assess costs orders during the remedy stages of court hearings - they are not "rules" about how much a solicitor can charge a client.

Having spent a happy hour trawling through the SRA regulations, which make reading legislation a doddle compared to them, I can find nothing that suggests that the practice is required to advise you in advance of their costs - I suspect that there is an assumption being made that people would realise that as a general rule a solicitor requires paying and would clarify this matter before they book an appointment. There are a great many regulations around being open and transparent about costs for someone who you are representing, but I cannot clearly identify that these apply to the circumstances that you describe of an initial consultation. They do very clearly state that if a free service or pro-bono service is offered, it must be very clear what that entails and exactly what is free - hence the format used by solicitors who do provide initial consultations for free specifying things like time limits for the free service. As I said, I believe that all legal practitioners should be open and transparaent about costs at all stages, but that is my opinion, and not necessarily a statement of absolute fact.

If you wish to challenge this then you will have little choice but to go down the formal complaints procedure which you can find outlined here: http://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/prob...solicitor.page

[gravytrain]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

The link I gave also covers CFAs and other costs information as well as court costs.

In practice and from personal experience, i can say that some solicitors do take advantage of the unsuspecting client.
The cosy chat about the problem, the coffee and biscuits with the nice man who is going to help with your problem.
Resulting in the bill for £300 a week later is not unheard of.

[wales01man]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

Why does a profesisonal charging so much not have the decency to say upfront what they charge if your told the cost you can make a decision to use their services or not ?

[gravytrain]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

Why does a profesisonal charging so much not have the decency to say upfront what they charge if your told the cost you can make a decision to use their services or not ?

Yes my point entirely, this is from the link I gave earlier

The solicitors hourly rate charged to a client is a matter for negotiation and free economy. It is not set by any rule or regulation and can be whatever the client and solicitor agree provided the client's agreement is based on informed choice. This does not mean the solicitor has to tell the client what everyone else charges, but the client needs to understand and appreciate the amount is not set and other solicitors may charge different rates.

Also the article mentions that the rate the solicitor charges should reflect the lawyers grade and experience, many times it seems the client will be paying a solicitors rate when the person they are talking to is really a lay person who has picked up the jargon and a little information.

[Eloise01]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

I can't disagree with any of that - and as I said, I am not a solicitor so I am dependant on what their regulations say and they are about as clear as mud on this - if there are any solicitors around it would be useful to have their view on practical implementation of the regulations. I am not in any way defending this or suggesting that all legal professionals are "honest" (for lack of a better word coming to mind) - I can tell stories that would make your hair curl, including one about a solicitor who charged someone over £7,000 for legal representation that they never actually needed, and did so entirely within the "rules". This poor lady spent her entire life savings on it, and never saw a penny of it back, nor any action taken against the solicitor. So I am certainly not defending this - but disagreeing with it and it being "wrong" as in not lawful or within regulations are two different things, and I cannot find anything that suggests that is the case. Happy to be told that there is something and what it is.

[gravytrain]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

Yes the information I have read speaks of "Guidelines" rather than legislation unfortunately, however the SRA do have teeth and can impose effective sanctions for those who breach their code of conduct.

[MissFM]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

Firstly I am so sorry for your loss. Bereavement is a difficult time and unfortunately, in my experience, there are those who take financial advantage.

Please read this link (particularly Q1)
http://www.legalombudsman.org.uk/dow...e-costs-BW.pdf

Again, in my experience as a client, solicitors do as a matter of obligation give detailed, written information about their charges BEFORE you consult or instruct them. On the SRA website you will also find, in their advice to solicitors section, remarks to the effect that if the bill comes as a surprise to the client then something has gone wrong.

I believe this to be part of their duty of care and would certainly complain myself if I were given a bill under the circumstances you describe.

One of the few areas where complaints against solicitors are commonly upheld is on the issue of whether the client has been fully forewarned as to costs - ie not that the solicitors have charged outrageous fees but that they have failed to inform the client of their intention to do so.

A phonecall to the OS or the SRA would certainly be worthwhile IMHO as to the correct complaints procedure. From my own experience , the first step is to write a letter clearly marked "Formal Complaint" to the firm's complaints officer. I would also make it clear in your letter that you require them to implement their formal complaints procedure at no cost to yourself.

As regards Probate - do have a look at the advice and resources on this site under "bereavement and end of life issues" (bottom of page). Probate really is very simple unless the will/estate of the deceased is unusually complicated or contested and can be done remarkably cost effectively by a complete layperson (speaking as such!).

[Eloise01]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

That's very useful MissFM. Wading through the regulations I could find lots of things about fees, disbursements and associated costs and warning the client in relation to acting for the client (i.e. after the initial consultation) but absolutely not a dicky bird that said, or which I could interpret as saying, that someone must be told that an initial consultation costs £XX. But then my head was spinning by the time I had finished - as I said, I would rather read legislation, which is soooo much simpler!

[gravytrain]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

I would rather read legislation, which is soooo much simpler!

Have a look at the Bill of Sale Act 1854, and see if you are still of the same opinion

[Eloise01]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

Have a look at the Bill of Sale Act 1854, and see if you are still of the same opinion

Not tried that one. If I get insomnia I will give it a whirl.

[enquirer]

Re: Are these Solicitor fees legal??

You are liable for the bill - it was 90 minutes after all - even though his rate is on the high side. If the estate is fairly simple, then £3500 for dealing with the whole matter is ridiculous, particularly when it is extremely likely that someone else will actually do the work. Using cheap junior staff (or even students), whilst charging for a partner, is a common dodge.

You could protest that it was not actually 90 minutes. Hinting that you might dispute the total may induce a little flexibility. Pay the final bill and get hold of the Will. Then you can go elsewhere.