Grandparents social workers & private proceedings

[Lola49]

Hello we'r wondering if anyone has experience in the following.
We are grandparents of a 2.5 & 4 yr old. We have helped my daughter (the mum) with them over the years, every weekend they stayed over with us (just the children) and at least one afternoon a week. At other times when my daughter needex help with them. She's a young mum & we've always been there for her & the children.
It has gone wrong over the past year or so. My daughter has a new boyfriend for 2 years (the children do not see their birth father). New boyfriend introduced drugs to the house, she has had long term mental health problems so drugs were the wrong thing for her. She tried to overdose late last year (she has tried this before). Then she became addicted to narcotics, at this point we looked after the children for about 6 weeks during which time my daughter had very minimal contact with them.

The social services became involved and said the children couldn't return to their mother until she'd had a mental health assessment but put no orders in place to prevent her taking them. So over a bank holiday weekend & while the social worker is on leave my daughter decided to take them home. We follow the social worker advice - phoning out of hours & police but no one could do anything. In the meantime my daughter decides she doesn't want the children to see us. So we spent an agonising 2 weeks without seeing the children, getting very upset with social services who in turn got defensive back so we didn't get anywhere with that.

After this point the social worker returns from leave & organises a meeting with a view to a safety plan involving us to help avoid the same situation in the future. But my daughter still insisted we couldn't see the children. The social worker persuaded her to let us see them for an hour a week 'as a starting point', however over the last month its just stuck at this hour. She's changed the day 4 times & each time makes it harder for us to see them (for exampke 8am-9am on a Saturday morning, or during my working hours).

The social worker said she'd keep us informed throughout the assessment process but the tinescale (40 days) she had to do the assessment has long expired & she does not return our calls, emails or letters,nor does her manager. It transpires that my daughter has requested that the social worker does not contact or respond to us - can she do that?

I am really worried about my grandchildren & know they are being harmed emotionally by her actions. They really want to stay longer than an hour but my daughter will not let them. She gives changeable reasons & these are unconvincing.

is it me or should the social services be doing more to help? I just feel that this is not good for the children.

We have triggered a mediation appointment but my daughter refused to go. Is our only option now the family court? And what role will the current social worker have in the family court if any (she's a childrens social worker so not for my daughter).

I just feel like this social worker won't know our position having only met us twice and neither time on our own. It seems like she's not seeing the children & from the meeting & from what my daughter says (mught or might not be factual) she's advising her about our time with the children all the way through.

Is there anyone whose had experiemce of grandparents/are grandparents in this situation ? We want more time with our grandchildren obviously but not sure what a family court will be able to do. My daughter is very hostile to us seeing the children.

[Peridot]

Hi Lola49,

Sorry I'd missed your post so hadn't put in my penny's worth until now. How distressing for you both.

Just to clarify, obviously social workers (SW) remain involved but is there any order currently in place regarding the children? Unfortunately it seems that with communication breaking down between you and your daughter the only way you are finding anything out about your grandchildren is through the SW, which now also seems to be sparse information.

Is your daughter still with the partner, or have they split up? Are there any concerns for the grandchildren's safety? How is your daughter currently or are you unable to find this out at the moment, without the SW letting you know?

As Grandparents, potentially you have the right to seek permission from the Court for a Child Arrangement Order (CAO) to be made dealing with contact with your grandchildren. From your post it appears that you have tried to engage in Mediation but this wasn't successful. Did the mediator offer to provide you with a certificate confirming it was not possible to engage in the process? Have you discussed seeking a CAO with the social worker and would they support you in any application?

Court proceedings are always stressful for all concerned and families are always encouraged to try and reach agreement through mediation if at all possible. However, if there are issues surrounding the children's safety this may be the only route to take. You wonder why your daughter has decided you shouldn't have contact with the children? Does she resent your previous involvement, does she believe this is why SW became involved in the first place or does she thing you want to take the children away from her altogether? It may or may not be helpful to try and be as 'giving' as possible depending on the circumstances and if possible reassure her that it isn't your intention to have the children removed but that you want to give her support and a break occasionally? Of course I don't know the whole background and this may not be appropriate depending what has gone on. It does sound like you are supportive parents and grandparents and only want what is best for everyone.

It would be sensible to try and speak to the SW to see what their plan is with regard to the children and to also ascertain whether they would support you in an application for contact with the grandchildren. You need to get some advice from a specialist children lawyer who would be able to give you the options open to you so you can decide what is the best route for you. Many lawyers will offer a free initial appointment or reduced fee first appointment to provide initial advice on the problem. It would be helpful if you knew what the SW position would be if you did decide to make a Court application, so you have this information available at any solicitor meeting you arrange. Although I appreciate it can be difficult to obtain information from the SW so I wouldn't wait indefinitely for this. You can get some legal advice without the info it would maybe help the lawyer assess the likelihood of you getting permission to apply for an order but isn't make or break.

Hopefully we can help point you in the right direction.

[Lola49]

Thank you for your reply. To answer some of your questions - yes she is still with the boyfriend. We have both tried to make contact with the social worker, via phone, email and also letter, we also put through another referral outlining the harm we are seeing done to the children (the eldest is saying her mother says we are mean and tells them there are dangers at our house etc). The children clearly get distressed and confused about only spending one hour a week with us after living here and staying here such a lot. However we do not hear back from the social worker, we then tried her manager, nothing from her either.
We have been to see a solicitor and she helped us fill in both forms and she suggested that because what is happening is harmful to the children, we tick that box to bypass the mediation, so we did that however thought that it was worth requesting mediation whilst waiting for a court date anyway, so we have been to mediation separately but my daughter didn't want to proceed. So we have the mediation form from the mediator you mention as well.
Given the fact that time is ticking on and the more this goes on for the more harm is coming to the children, so we asked for the hearing to be expediated, so we now have a date for a permissions hearing in 2 weeks time. We are concerned, given our daughter's hostility that she will not turn up.

We have asked about the assessment and plan and how our daughter is coping, and I spoke to a duty social worker who said that she didn't have consent to discuss anything with us. She did however say that the assessment has now been completed but has not yet been sent out- this is nearly 2 months late - why would it be that delayed do you think? we will not receive a copy although the duty worker said the court will ask for a copy.

As far as I know there are no orders in place. I don't really know how my daughter is coping. I believe that my daughter blames us for the social work intervention, as we spoke to the health visitor who in turn referred to social care. We have tried to explain to our daughter that what was happening was really dangerous for the children and my daughter, there was drugs around the house and the youngest was playing with them when I visited, my daughter was overdosing in front of them, and smoking a joint (I don't think smoking dope is really bad but it felt wrong to be doing this in front of the children), the biggest issue was that the children weren't being cared for. So I've tried to explain to my daughter that because this situation has been going on for some time we were exhausted and really needed help given that the children were by this stage staying with us. I think she felt betrayed but I had told her that I was going to speak to the health visitor - my daughter was so out of it she didn't know what I was saying. We just wanted to help avoid the situation happening over and over. She kept ending up in hospital due to overdosing which was going on since last year so we were amazed that the health visitor didn't refer the family to social care before.

Unfortunately the social worker doesn't seem to have any leverage with my daughter in terms of keeping our relationship going with the children, we don't know what else she is doing but have made sure they know that we are still here and willing to help should this be needed and that we want to keep the lines of communication open with the service, however we haven't heard back at all. We have also said we are now seeking a CAO via the family court because we want this resolved. We just don't think that the social worker has any real urgency or motivation in resolving this for the children or the family. We think the social worker is still involved but don't know what the plan looks like at all. This aspect of things has been particularly frustrating for us because we were very central to the children's care and now we have been shut out not just by our daughter but by the social worker as well - but at least we have tried to communicate with them despite it feeling like we might as well be talking to a wall!

We are not employing a solicitor because we can't really afford it but we have used one for checking through the forms, and will dip in and out of their help, however they are very expensive.

[Peridot]

Hi again Lola49,

Such a difficult situation for you. Heart-breaking. It sounds like your daughter is not in a good place and can't see it. She probably is blaming you for all her woes and the involvement of Social Services.Hopefully she will understand one day you have done this for the right reasons, but it may be sometime. You are doing all the right things. While your daughter is in the situation, you have to focus on the grandchildren's safety and wellbeing, which you are doing as far as you can.

Making an application for contact with the grandchildren may be really tough but will also ensure that previous matters are in the open so to speak. CAFCASS may need to be involved and if any question of the children's interests not being met is flagged, it may also cause the Court's to request Social Services also report.

I know it is hard but it is correct that Social Services are not disclosing reports and the like to you, without your daughter's consent.

It is almost like a parental separation where the children are turned against the non resident parent and is really tough to deal with. All you can do is be there for the grandchildren (and your daughter) if the need arises down the line.

You are being sensible getting documents checked by lawyers. There may come a time you would need to have some representation, if the application proceeds to hearings, but you can decide that in due course. There are some law firms that offer fixed fee Children Act services. The fees would be for pieces of work such as a statement or representation at a hearing, rather than signing up with them to do everything. Have a look on our sister site justbeagle.com where you can search for fixed fee availability in your area for Children Act applications. It is always worth asking a lawyer if they can deal In this way.

Keep going we're here for support and pointers, if needed.

[Lola49]

Thank you for uour reply. I'll take a look at your sister site.