Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

You're a star, thank you so much [MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION]

No joy with any unions so far so it looks like he'll be on his own, the notes and references will help him loads

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=66751]Jojo71[/MENTION]

You're very welcome.

You should prepare yourself for the likelihood that the employer will not concede at this stage, and consider how far you're prepared to take your claim.

It's entirely possible that your son having to represent himself will go in his favour. An ET judge may consider the employer should have taken your son's age and inexperience into account when considering your request for him to be accompanied.

Do let us know how it goes.

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@matt3942 will do, the meeting's next Monday so hopefully have some sort of answer before the end of next week.

I fully expect them to say we are wrong about the contract as they have already defended themselves over my son's dismissal and their answer to our questioning his dismissal was to say he didn't have an apprentice agreement he had a fixed term contract with probationary period so they were within their rights to do so. It's hard to understand that fairly large companies can make these mistakes.

Really appreciate the time you've taken to help me understand. Hopefully it will make one company think a little bit more about how it treats it's young employees

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

You'd be surprised how many employers don't understand fully the law when it comes to employing apprentices, or young people in general - many take their standard employment contract and simply add 'Apprentice' in front of the job title, which inadvertently creates an apprenticeship contract. Unfortunately, most people simply accept what their employer tells them, enabling the employer to continue acting unlawfully.

Try not to confuse the terms apprenticeship contract, and apprenticeship agreement. Remember, your argument is that they have created an apprenticeship contract (not an apprenticeship agreement), which affords apprentices additional employment rights, specifically that they cannot be dismissed except in certain circumstances.

An apprenticeship agreement does not provide the same additional employment rights, and so they would have been able to dismiss your son as they would any other employee.

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

We definitely won't get them confused, we got them to clarify just after my son's dismissal that no apprentice agreement exists, made sure that appeared in the grievance letter too.

The only thing we're unsure of is what to say if they ask my son what he wants the outcome to be, as he doesn't want to go back to work there (due to everything that has happened). He's getting nowhere with the training company either, they're not returning his calls and when he does get hold of them they just say we're still trying to get a placement we'll be in touch

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=66751]Jojo71[/MENTION] - Do you have it in writing from the employer that no apprenticeship agreement existed?

As for the desired outcome, your son may have to ask to be reinstated (and hope they refuse if that isn't what he wants). I don't know if there's precedent for requesting financial compensation as part of a grievance meeting after dismissal - perhaps [MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION] [MENTION=6]Amethyst[/MENTION] or [MENTION=26290]mariefab[/MENTION] can offer some advice here.

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION] unfortunately not, it was said over the phone. We did include in the grievance letter about the contract not being an apprentice agreement as it didn't comply with the requirements and backed it up saying it was also confirmed by the hr manager who said that my son didn't have one when he asked for a copy of it.

I have spoken to my son about the possibility of them offering him a position in another branch and he said it would depend on what else was said and the outcome of the meeting as to whether he would take it. I did ask what he wanted to achieve from the meeting and his answer was he didn't want anyone else to be treated like he was,

They have said he could record the meeting as long as they can have a copy, which is good.

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION] would it be ok for my son to say he'd be happy to work at another branch but not at the one he was initially employed at due to what had happened. He is worried that if he says he wants his job back they would make him go back to that branch.

Many thanks

[des8]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

In view of the problems he encountered at his place of work IMO it would not be detrimental to his case to refuse to return to that place, whilst seeking his job back.
I wonder what others think: [MENTION=7458]matt[/MENTION] : [MENTION=26290]mariefab[/MENTION]

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=66751]Jojo71[/MENTION]

I have to agree with [MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION] - it's not unreasonable for your son to want to continue his apprenticeship with the employer and work in a different branch/office. I actually think it's a credit to your son.

How did the meeting go today?

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Hi [MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION],

I am so proud of him right now, I've listened to the recording and he conducted himself really well in a very uncomfortable meeting. The hr manager introduced the meeting and said it was to give my son chance to air his grievance and as a fact finding mission for them to enable the investigation. The general manager was (I felt) hostile and started off questioning my son about what he understood to be misconduct, which went against what the hr manager said was the purpose of the meeting. This confused my son as he had never been accused of misconduct. He tried to answer as best he could and the GM tried to steer him into saying that his lateness on occasions was misconduct. He was then questioned about his contract which he referred to the notes, this is where it gets interesting, they then produced a copy of an apprenticeship learning agreement which my son had signed when he attended the apprentice day for the job. I've attached a copy and from what I can see it still doesn't satisfy the requirements of an apprentice agreement but I believe the company think it is an apprentice agreement. What it does say on the 3rd page which my sons manager signed is that the company will provide the learner with an apprenticeship agreement, which they clearly haven't done. I was worried when I first looked at the document but hopefully you will will agree that it isn't an apprentice agreement.

They did question why my son hadn't taken his complaints to them but he explained throughout he spoke to his direct manager as that is who he thought he had to report it to. They wanted it noting that my son had a copy of the company handbook, which I think they will use to say if he was suffering harassment there is a clear procedure and he didn't follow it (just my impression by the tone of the meeting)

My son did say he wanted to continue his apprenticeship at another branch. The hr manager appeared to be very encouraging about this and said she would see whether it was possible. She said they would get back to him within a week by writing to let him know the outcome.

So we now wait and see

Many thanks for your help and interest
Jo

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=66751]Jojo71[/MENTION] - Have you received a reply from the employer?

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Hi [MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION],

they sent an email 2 days after the meeting arranging a meeting at the other branch with the manager for yesterday, they stated the meeting was noncommittal on both sides. In the meantime my son has been offered a higher apprenticeship (much better prospects and employer). My son was initially going to the meeting as he had nothing else lined up, then he got offered the job on Thursday and started Monday (I've checked the contract and it is an apprentice agreement this time, he's also attending college on day release).

We cancelled the meeting as he was at work so couldn't attend. They have now sent an email asking what he wants the outcome to be. I am just in the process of writing back saying that we still hold that the contract was breached and as such my son's wages from September are owed and he would accept payment of them as a conclusion to the matter.

Does that sound reasonable?

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Hi [MENTION=66751]Jojo71[/MENTION]

That's fantastic news - well done him!

I think that seems very reasonable and spares you the hassle of going through the tribunal process.

Good job

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Fingers crossed they go for it

Thank you so much for your help and advice [MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION] we really appreciate it, you're an absolute star :stars: