Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

[redbulluk]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

Thanks again for all your advice. I do feel I lead you down slightly the wrong path when I mentioned constructive dismissal. I'm hoping that's a last resort if they don't see sense.

I think the key point is; did she screw up by not wording her resignation letter completely? ie. by omitting to mention notice period? I don't see that it gives them the right to terminate her employment immediately and withhold pay.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

Thanks again for all your advice. I do feel I lead you down slightly the wrong path when I mentioned constructive dismissal. I'm hoping that's a last resort if they don't see sense.

I think the key point is; did she screw up by not wording her resignation letter completely? ie. by omitting to mention notice period? I don't see that it gives them the right to terminate her employment immediately and withhold pay.

The employer simply could have asked her from which date she wished to terminate her services, in its absence it sounds like to me either victimisation or discrimination, as they wanted rid of her, it would seem. Did she resign owing to her sickness or did it have anything at all to do with it? What was the nature of her sickness, ie there may be grounds for disability discrimination. It may also be constructive dismissal if the employer was forcing her out of the job, ie she felt she had no other option but to resign owing to the unreasonable conduct by her employer. Her remedy is ACAS then tribunal for all her losses in addition to said claims.

[charitynjw]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

Thanks again for all your advice. I do feel I lead you down slightly the wrong path when I mentioned constructive dismissal. I'm hoping that's a last resort if they don't see sense.

I think the key point is; did she screw up by not wording her resignation letter completely?
Without sight of the letter, it's not possible to answer that accurately.
ie. by omitting to mention notice period?
She doesn't have to; the notice period will be either stipulated in the contract of employment, or if that is absent, with reference to s86 ERA 1996........one week if employed for less than 2 years.
Also, is PILON a term in the contract?
I don't see that it gives them the right to terminate her employment immediately and withhold pay.

The crucial bits will be

a) the exact wording of the resignation letter. (Were words such as 'forthwith' or 'with immediate effect, 'cos I'm not coming back!' used?
b) the exact reason why the employer terminated the contract (ie did the breach warrant summary dismissal?)

[redbulluk]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

OK, so an interesting / frustrating turn of events. They've decided to play dirty;


I spoke to my gf last night and she told me that her email stated that 'i hereby give notice of my intention to leave the employment of' etc. So we emailed the company and requested a copy of her email, and their subsequent reply acknowledging it.


They've sent it back this morning, but have changed it! Her email now reads along the lines of "I hereby leave the employment of xxxx with immediate effect" (I'll have their exact, made-up wording later).

[redbulluk]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

OK, they are claiming the emails were as follows:
-----------
Hi xxxx
Please accept this email as notice of my resignation from my position of xxxxxxx at xxxxx
Effective immediately from today the 31st May
Kind regards
xxxxx


-----


Dear xxxx
We refer to your resignation letter dated 31st May and whilst the company is naturally disappointed with your decision to resign, we confirm that your resignation is accepted and, as you requested, the date of termination of your Contract of Employment will be treated as 31 May 2016
....
xxx will be in your area on Thursday 9 June .....with a view to collecting the company property.....
You have received your salary up to the date of your resignation but you will be paid any sum due to you in respect of accrued but untaken annual leave entitlement and arrangements will be made to provide you with your P45 in due course


xxxxx
--------------

She wishes she'd read their reply more closely originally, but as I mentioned - she was on morphine at the time!

[R0b]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

Are you certain they have amended it?

What email client are you using to view the email? You might be able to check the 'Headers' to see whether it has in fact been altered, quite technical but it might be a way of confirming if it has been changed if they have forwarded it onto you.

But its full of technical stuff so you need to know how to read and understand it.

[redbulluk]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

Are you certain they have amended it?

What email client are you using to view the email? You might be able to check the 'Headers' to see whether it has in fact been altered, quite technical but it might be a way of confirming if it has been changed if they have forwarded it onto you.

But its full of technical stuff so you need to know how to read and understand it.

They've attached a scanned copy of a print-out of the email, so there's no header data.

Though, now that I've re-read what they've sent - she DID use the word "notice", and she certainly didn't request that she doesn't work her notice period. It looks perfectly reasonable to construe that as giving notice to resign on that date, not resigning immediately.

[R0b]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

Ask for the email to be forwarded on as you do not accept a print out of the email because it does not prove anything and could have been altered, and go from there.

[redbulluk]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

Ask for the email to be forwarded on as you do not accept a print out of the email because it does not prove anything and could have been altered, and go from there.

I will do, though header data can be altered too and I fear may not prove anything either. Is it necessary? Do you think the wording is adequate to be deemed notice ?

[redbulluk]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

The crucial bits will be
a) the exact wording of the resignation letter. (Were words such as 'forthwith' or 'with immediate effect, 'cos I'm not coming back!' used?
b) the exact reason why the employer terminated the contract (ie did the breach warrant summary dismissal?)

You've been super-helpful, so just wondered if you had any last minute advice, before we send a reply?
(not sure if you saw my post with the exact wordings - see below)

OK, they are claiming the emails were as follows:
-----------
Hi xxxx
Please accept this email as notice of my resignation from my position of xxxxxxx at xxxxx
Effective immediately from today the 31st May
Kind regards
xxxxx


-----


Dear xxxx
We refer to your resignation letter dated 31st May and whilst the company is naturally disappointed with your decision to resign, we confirm that your resignation is accepted and, as you requested, the date of termination of your Contract of Employment will be treated as 31 May 2016
....
xxx will be in your area on Thursday 9 June .....with a view to collecting the company property.....
You have received your salary up to the date of your resignation but you will be paid any sum due to you in respect of accrued but untaken annual leave entitlement and arrangements will be made to provide you with your P45 in due course


xxxxx
--------------

She wishes she'd read their reply more closely originally, but as I mentioned - she was on morphine at the time!

[R0b]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

Ask them to forward the email chain onto you, that is not being unreasonable and cite the fact that a screenshot printout does not prove anything as it can easily be doctored. If they refuse then it is them that is being unreasonable and not you.

As for the headers, yes it could be altered but you would need to know what your doing and I don't think ordinary joe knows how to do that. If it went to court you could ask the court for an expert to verify the email has not been altered or changed but that is only proportionate based on what you would be claiming.

One step at a time though.

[charitynjw]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

Is your gf still signed off as sick, & is that likely to continue throughout the contractual notice period (ie date of resignation +( i believe you said) 2 months)?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

They've attached a scanned copy of a print-out of the email, so there's no header data.

Though, now that I've re-read what they've sent - she DID use the word "notice", and she certainly didn't request that she doesn't work her notice period. It looks perfectly reasonable to construe that as giving notice to resign on that date, not resigning immediately.

Did she do a print screen scan (to get a scan of the screen) of the email or can you prove the email (by her) was sent with the actual wording. If not, it is hearsay so you'll have to be called as a witness to prove it. However, given your relationship the employer will argue there's a conflict of interest as he'll simply say, it's his girlfriend and will lie for her, or the employer's lawyer will cross examine to this effect. So, the more witnesses your girlfriend has the better for you.

You may also be able to contact your employer's internet provider and ask for a transcript of the electronic communication. If not, at the tribunal ask the judge for a disclosure order against the employer to provide the details of the transcript through their internet provider. That email of course will have been deleted by the employer (the one your girlfriend sent), so forcing the employer to disclose the evidence via their internet provider is your only remedy.

[redbulluk]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

Is your gf still signed off as sick, & is that likely to continue throughout the contractual notice period (ie date of resignation +( i believe you said) 2 months)?

No. She was signed off sick up to 13th June and was available to work her notice period

[redbulluk]

Re: Resigned or gave notice? Employment terminated?

Did she do a print screen scan (to get a scan of the screen) of the email or can you prove the email (by her) was sent with the actual wording. If not, it is hearsay so you'll have to be called as a witness to prove it. However, given your relationship the employer will argue there's a conflict of interest as he'll simply say, it's his girlfriend and will lie for her, or the employer's lawyer will cross examine to this effect. So, the more witnesses your girlfriend has the better for you.

You may also be able to contact your employer's internet provider and ask for a transcript of the electronic communication. If not, at the tribunal ask the judge for a disclosure order against the employer to provide the details of the transcript through their internet provider. That email of course will have been deleted by the employer (the one your girlfriend sent), so forcing the employer to disclose the evidence via their internet provider is your only remedy.

The scan was done by the employer. My gf has no record of the email thread other than the scan they've sent her.
My understanding is that email header data only really contains info relating to who the sender and recipient are etc. rather than content. I don't really want to rely on proving they amended it - it seems like a real long shot and I personally think the wording is adequate anyway - it still uses the word 'notice' at least.