Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

[dan_1207]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

Have to agree with TB2 a " Firm" I worked for tried this the assumption that all personnel had access to the internet at all times was unreasonable and it was withdrawn an payslips were posted instead.

(a)the employee has reasonable opportunities of reading in the course of his employment

[Berniethebolt]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

Have to agree with TB2 a " Firm" I worked for tried this the assumption that all personnel had access to the internet at all times was unreasonable and it was withdrawn an payslips were posted instead.

Nem I am not sure what you are actually commenting on . TB2 said they had to be in written format and given to the employees, you are saying that it was unreasonable that people were assumed to have access all the time. Completely different things, OR are you agreeing with him because I disagreed with him?

(a)the employee has reasonable opportunities of reading in the course of his employment

I assume this means that so long as the employee has access to the place where the payslip is ( i.e a computer that has access to the secure area) while at work it is acceptable. After all many companies hand out the payslips in work so its not as if you can complain about not having access. McDonalds used to staple the payslips onto the back of the crews clock card

[des8]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

The government website (https://www.gov.uk/payslips) says employees should keep their payslips as long as possible as proof of earnings, tax paid and pension contributions.
If the payslip is only posted on line,on employers secure site. how does employee implement governmental advice?

Also s.8 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (Itemised pay statement) "An employee has the right to be given , at or before the time at which any payment of wages or salary is made to him, a written itemised pay statement" (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/8) (as per Nem)

I don't see how a computerised pay slip, accessible only on the employer's secure site, complies with the law. But then I'm not into employment............ I'm retired!!

[dan_1207]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

You print it off.

[des8]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

.......... and in support of Dan:
https://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Ju...ocuments/2014/[2014]%20NICA%2057/j_j_OHA9342Final.htm
[19] Article 40 of the Employment Rights (NI) Order 1996 (“the 1996 Order”) provides as follow:

“(1) An employee has the right to be given by his employer, at or before the time at which any payment of wages or salary is made to him, a written itemised pay statement.”

It is then provided at Articles 43 and 44 of the 1996 Order that where an employee does not receive an itemised pay statement, the employee may refer that fact to a tribunal for determination and the tribunal may then make a declaration that there has been such a failure. There is no provision in the legislation for compensation in this context.

[20] The appellant’s contention was that at no point during his employment did he receive an itemised pay statement. The employer accepted that the appellant was not given a written itemised pay statement but contended that in keeping with what it suggested was modern industrial practice employees were given on-line accessible payslips. They were accessible because according to Mr David Cairns, a witness who impressed the Tribunal, he trained the appellant and other new employees in how they could access their payslips on-line by means of a specific password system. Employees who forgot their passwords then had an option to obtain a new password which would last for 24 hours – at the same time they would receive an e‑mail informing how to create a new password. The Tribunal was satisfied that this system was the same for all employees in the appellant’s position though it appeared that for some reason he had some difficulty in accessing his payslip despite the training given by Mr Cairns.

[21] The court had some unease about whether the respondent had complied with the strict provisions of Article 40 of the 1996 Order i.e. the requirement to give a written itemised pay statement. However, in his submission Mr Warnock drew our attention to section 46(1) of the Interpretation (NI) Act 1954 which provides:

“’Writing’, ‘written’ or any term of like import shall include words typewritten, printed, painted, engraved, lithographed, photographed or represented or reproduced by any mode of representing or reproducing words in a visible form.”

[22] We accept that in the context of current standards of information technology the requirement to provide a written itemised pay statement is complied with if words are reproduced in a visible form on a computer screen. To that however we would add this caveat – if an employer is aware that an employee is having difficulty of any sort in actually accessing a payslip in this way, the employer is obliged to find an alternative method of providing information in accordance with the statutory requirement. Notwithstanding this caveat we agree that the Tribunal was correct in law to dismiss this aspect of the appellant’s claim.

[Berniethebolt]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

So written does have to be on paper.

[dan_1207]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

No, computer is fine.

[teaboy2]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

Section 6, Employment Rights Act 1996:
In sections 2 to 4 references to a document or collective agreement which is reasonably accessible to an employee are references to a document or collective agreement which—

(a)the employee has reasonable opportunities of reading in the course of his employment, or
(b)is made reasonably accessible to the employee in some other way.

I don't think there's been a breach.

section 2 to 4 have nothing to do with itemised pay slips


section 2 is statement of initial particulars; supplementary - i.e Company handbook
section 3 is disciplinary procedures and pensions - i.e disciplinary and pension policies, usually in company handbook or written statement (contract)
section 4 is statement of changes i.e notices informing employees to changes in policy or procedures,etc etc

None of them are itemised payslips that include personal employee data!

Also [MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION] - the case and interpretation act relied on in said case was from Northern ireland.

[dan_1207]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

See Des' latest post. Still not a breach.

[dan_1207]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

I clearly typed 6 rather than 8! Lol.

[dan_1207]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

By virtue of section 12(4) of the ERA 1996, a tribunal may order an employer who has made "unnotified deductions" (as defined in section 12(5)) in the 13 week period preceding the application to the tribunal to pay the employee a sum "not exceeding the aggregate of the unnotified deductions so made". This appears to be the only financial remedy available to an employee in respect of the failure to provide an itemised pay statement.

[des8]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

Also @des8 - the case and interpretation act relied on in said case was from Northern ireland.

I did realise that, but felt it was still suasive

[teaboy2]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

See Des' latest post. Still not a breach.

I wouldn't be to sure as the legislation clearly says "written" and "given" - Typewritten isn't electronic visualization (visualised on a computer screen) or indeed electronic form (email), neither is written par se, the others certainly are not. Employees printing it out isn't Employer giving written pay slip - So basically the legislation is clear that employer is responsible in giving (printing out and giving hard copy) a written pay slip to employee.

The courts/tribunal do not have the power to add interpretations to statutory law, only parliament does, so defining type written as being the same as a visualisation on a computer in order to accommodate modern technology into legislation from 1978 is beyond the courts power. Not only that typewritten documents are nothing like a document displayed electronically our typed on a computer! Though if printed from a computer to paper they are one and the same, but only if printed, but its the employers obligation to give the employer a printed written version.

But no point in debating it further as its no real relevance other than possible use as extra ammo to throw at employer to add pressure on them if this matter were to go to court/tribunal!

I clearly typed 6 rather than 8! Lol.

hmmm i'll give you that... this time lol

By virtue of section 12(4) of the ERA 1996, a tribunal may order an employer who has made "unnotified deductions" (as defined in section 12(5)) in the 13 week period preceding the application to the tribunal to pay the employee a sum "not exceeding the aggregate of the unnotified deductions so made". This appears to be the only financial remedy available to an employee in respect of the failure to provide an itemised pay statement.

I agree, hence its no real relevance other than use as extra ammo to add pressure to employer, though on its own that pressure wouldn't amount to much unless the employer has broken other employment laws - Usually have in my experience!

[teaboy2]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

I did realise that, but felt it was still suasive

Well the act of 1978 (UK) does define written in the same fashion under schedule one - But electronic visualization isn't written in the same sense as typewritten (which was typed on to paper, much like we print to paper nowadays).

[wales01man]

Re: Overpaid wages passed to solicitors

The employer must keep records of payslips for a period of time? if so for any action to be taken surely they would have to produce these?