How do people keep chipper?

[Trev1234]

OK. You've been dismissed. Its unfair. No one really cares, people get on with their life. You need a job, likely references won't help. You are going to ET for unfair/constructive dismissal but meanwhile creating a defence which takes energy.

How do/have people keeping going to the ET given the stress of it all - and is this why so many don't?

I'm currently wondering whether its worth it and move elsewhere - even though my case is strong - others?

T

ps. all jokes and light-heartedness welcome!

[FlamingParrot]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

OK. You've been dismissed. Its unfair. No one really cares, people get on with their life. You need a job, likely references won't help. You are going to ET for unfair/constructive dismissal but meanwhile creating a defence which takes energy.

How do/have people keeping going to the ET given the stress of it all

OK, this is a personal view from a claimant who's been there, done that, twice! :grin: :grin:

1. Thirst for justice. Employers have the upper hand and get away with all sorts of things whilst the little guy gets penalised for any little thing. :mmph:
2. Thirst for revenge! :grin: At the very least, having to deal with a claim makes them worry a little and they'll have to hire lawyers and part with their ca$h to defend the claim.
3. Potential for settlement. Many employers will settle a claim even when their chances of winning at the ET are good for 'commercial rea$on$', meaning it makes more $en$e for them to offer you a certain $um than to waste their time and pay their overpriced lawyers. When I took on a City Corporation in 2003 I was given only 20% chance of winning, however, they still offered me a small sum on basis above. They'd hired Baker & McKenzie as their legal representatives, who at the time charged in the region of £500+ an hour! You'd only get a settlement if you issue a claim, if you don't, they wouldn't take you seriously.
4. References and non-disclosure clauses are also part of parcel of a settlement such as above. On the COT3 both parties agreed not to make 'disparaging remarks' against each other and an agreed reference, drafted and typed up by myself where I said how great and wonderful I was, got attached to the COT3 and they agreed to provide that whenever asked for a reference. The agreement was for five years.
5. If things work in your favour, you could end up with a tidy $um. :wof: :wof: :wof: Because costs are rarely awarded against a losing claimant, in most cases you'd have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

In view of all the above, I'd say a little stress can go a long way and is well worth it. :thumb: :thumb:

and is this why so many don't?

1. The requirement to pay fees has put many people off making claims, as the capital criteria for fee remission is not the same as that used by the DWP for means-tested benefits. The allowance for fees up to £1,000 is just £3,000. The higher fee is only for a final hearing though, you only have to pay £250 to submit the claim and if your employer sees $en$e and settles, they that's all you'd have to pay. There is no extra cost for a preliminary hearing and in some cases, key issues may be decided at such a hearing, i.e. in cases where it needs to be established whether you had the required length of service, whether you should have been the subject of a TUPE transfer or whether a contractor/temp/freelancer could have rights as an employee.
2. Not having easy access to legal representation. The prospect of dealing as a LIP (litigant in person) with highly paid lawyers and barristers hired by the other side who can recite legislation and quote case law in their sleep is daunting to say the least. It helps a lot if you can find pro-bono representation (twice lucky here :grin :grin which isn't always an option.
3. Being intimidated by your former employers. They will often write letters threatening legal action against you to try to get you to drop the claim. If you haven't got a good grasp of the law, both civil and criminal, it's easy to be intimidated. For example they may argue that having used what they say is their intellectual property on your website constitutes 'theft' or that they'll sue you to recover money they'd paid you because you were engaged in other activities whilst you were at work, etc.
4. Costs. Although not routinely awarded against claimants, they can be awarded if your case is found not to have any merit or you are found to be unreasonable. The stats I've looked at indicate only 1% of claimants have costs against them but that's enough to put you off if your opponent has hired a Magic Circle firm like the one I mentioned above. Back then I did have costs warnings from my solicitor which is why I accepted the settlement. The thought of B&M clocking up a £20k or £30k bill and being ordered to pay it still makes me shiver all these years later! :scared: :scared: :scared:
5. Simply not having a case. Employment law does favour employers in many ways :mad2: and allows them to get away with quite a lot. Constructive dismissal is something many people have always on the tip of their tongue, yet it's very hard to win a case like that, the success rate is just around 3%!

I'm currently wondering whether its worth it and move elsewhere - even though my case is strong - others?

Without knowing anything about your case it's impossible to say. Bear in mind an ET claim is a long process and settlement could be a possibility at any point:

1. I started by letting them know I'd be issuing a claim and sent a letter before action. Although this is not a requirement on ET claims, if it's written in a formal tone and quotes relevant bits of legislation, it would get them thinking. It all depends on who your employer is, of course.
2. These days the official process starts with early conciliation through ACAS which is free, at this stage your employer will be contacted by an ACAS representative and they'll see you are serious about issuing a claim and may agree to settle before things go further.
3. Once they are notified that a claim has been submitted (you'll need to pay £250 unless you qualify for fee remission), they may well start thinking about a settlement if they have any sense. Most employers will hire legal representation and will be made aware of the fact that, even if they win, the ET isn't likely to get the claimant to pay their co$t$.

Personally I don't believe in avoiding stress at all costs so that wouldn't be a reason not to go for it, however, there may be others, mainly relating to the nature of your case as such and how winnable it is. :decision:

[Wodniw]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

Some businesses use employment consultant firms and pay monthly fees, which includes the use of a solicitor at a tribunal, so they wont be racking up a huge legal bill. This could make the employer take a chance at a tribunal but, hopefully this will work in the employees favour too if they lose and end up having to pay their employers costs.

[Wodniw]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

To answer the original question, I keep going because I want my day in court. Yeah it's an uphill struggle and some days I wonder if all the stress is worth it but, Ive come too far now to just give up. If they want to settle out of court then fine, but it will be on my terms because I have nothing to lose by stepping into that courtroom. Any financial award I get as a result is just a bonus to me.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

Some businesses use employment consultant firms and pay monthly fees, which includes the use of a solicitor at a tribunal, so they wont be racking up a huge legal bill. This could make the employer take a chance at a tribunal but, hopefully this will work in the employees favour too if they lose and end up having to pay their employers costs.

It all depends on the size of the company, there is also insurance against ET claims but, as with all insurances, it can be hard to get them to pay out from what I've heard. Commercial settlements are fairly common with the larger companies even when you haven't got a solid case it seems, and that includes McD's! A few years ago I heard of a McD's employee who got a few grand in settlement despite the fact that it looked like his attitude was responsible for his dismissal and he was relying on rather technical issues to build up a case.

As I said above, the ET expects each side to cover its own legal costs and costs orders are rather unusual. The main problem for claimants is lack of access to even basic legal advice, without which it can be hard to gauge whether they are putting themselves at risk of a costs order or not. I was warned about it by my own solicitor at the time and given the fees charged by those guys and the low chances of success, I agreed to the terms of the COT3 also because I got a glowing reference and clauses that prevented them from saying anything negative about me.

To answer the original question, I keep going because I want my day in court. Yeah it's an uphill struggle and some days I wonder if all the stress is worth it but, Ive come too far now to just give up. If they want to settle out of court then fine, but it will be on my terms because I have nothing to lose by stepping into that courtroom. Any financial award I get as a result is just a bonus to me.

I agree with the view above, especially after being successful at the preliminary stage of my second claim. :whoo: :whoo:

[Trev1234]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

@FP Thanks – brilliant response and grateful you took the time.

I am rattled believe me – 20 yrs of high performance and then “done” for breaching an ICT Policy – when I am in charge of ICT with explicit requirement to evaluate new equipment and solutions and a policy which has the flexibility on the needs of the service. This is after attempting to ‘get me’ for theft, parking permit mis-use and mgt behaviours – all dropped! 8 months later dismissed – and hence the strain of 2015!

I am eager to have justice (and revenge) and am waiting whether the legals think I have a case under home insurance.
My employer is a City Council which has its own legal dept. Trying to take down the top IT man might cause them some embarrassment in a public ET and the local rag will jot down every single note!

My approach hoping legals come through is to submit ACAS by close of August and then onto ET by close of September. This means the employer gets two bites to close this off – ACAS (COT3) or Compromise prior to hearing. I’m new to this so forgive any technical inaccuracies.

Meanwhile I am still reeling from the dismissal 1 July and having compiled covering letters and a shiny CV start to ponder the inevitable “why did you leave”? question. I don’t want to burn my bridges if I can agree a reference with compensation – otherwise (and it feels aggressive and that they will go all the way) I’m stuck moving on for a while – hence my “chipper” question – it does oull you down and I have a young family.

I think I agree with you stress is worth the fight IF you win, though I am happy to pay the £250 and £950 on this basis – wonder if this is covered by insurance?

My case is unfair dismissal. My legals appear to be suggesting sanction “probably too strong” when I’m thinking a talk in an office somewhere so everyone understood the context would have put us all in a different position – pre-fishing trip!

@Woodniw – I am with you there. To be clear, I intend to go all the way.
@FP I have looked into Pro Bono but cannot find how to get into it?

Cheers all!
T

[FlamingParrot]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

@FP Thanks – brilliant response and grateful you took the time.

You're very welcome :yo: and I'm very happy in view of the judgment I've just received. :whoo:

I am rattled believe me – 20 yrs of high performance and then “done” for breaching an ICT Policy – when I am in charge of ICT with explicit requirement to evaluate new equipment and solutions and a policy which has the flexibility on the needs of the service. This is after attempting to ‘get me’ for theft, parking permit mis-use and mgt behaviours – all dropped! 8 months later dismissed – and hence the strain of 2015!

I am eager to have justice (and revenge) and am waiting whether the legals think I have a case under home insurance.

In that case, you'd be restricted to using a solicitor that's within their 'panel'.

My employer is a City Council which has its own legal dept. Trying to take down the top IT man might cause them some embarrassment in a public ET and the local rag will jot down every single note!

That may well make them think about settlement if they have any sense at all. ray:

My approach hoping legals come through is to submit ACAS by close of August and then onto ET by close of September. This means the employer gets two bites to close this off – ACAS (COT3) or Compromise prior to hearing. I’m new to this so forgive any technical inaccuracies.

With the new early conciliation system, you can have up to four months to submit your claim, depending on when you contact ACAS (which should still be within three months of dismissal) because the clock stops during conciliation and if your ex-employer refuses to negotiate, they can issue the certificate either immediately or delay it a bit to give you more time.

Meanwhile I am still reeling from the dismissal 1 July and having compiled covering letters and a shiny CV start to ponder the inevitable “why did you leave”? question. I don’t want to burn my bridges if I can agree a reference with compensation – otherwise (and it feels aggressive and that they will go all the way) I’m stuck moving on for a while – hence my “chipper” question – it does oull you down and I have a young family.

I think I agree with you stress is worth the fight IF you win, though I am happy to pay the £250 and £950 on this basis – wonder if this is covered by insurance?

If you win you'll recover the fees from the other side, however, if you are not in employment and haven't got a lot in savings you may qualify for fee remission, well worth looking into it. Otherwise you'll have to check the terms of your insurance policy.

My case is unfair dismissal. My legals appear to be suggesting sanction “probably too strong” when I’m thinking a talk in an office somewhere so everyone understood the context would have put us all in a different position – pre-fishing trip!

@Woodniw – I am with you there. To be clear, I intend to go all the way.
@FP I have looked into Pro Bono but cannot find how to get into it?

Re-quoting a previous post:

Although legal aid is no longer available for most employment matters, it's still available in cases of discrimination and being fired for being pregnant would fall under this category: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/la...-legal-aid-for-

It is also possible to obtain pro-bono legal representation for ET claims (I got it in 2003 and again last year :grin although a number of law clinics are run by universities and may not be available outside term time. This is a good place to find a law clinic: http://lawworks.org.uk/clinics. If you happen to be in London, this is a place a lot of people I know have used: http://www.toynbeehall.org.uk/employment-rights

[Trev1234]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

This will make you laugh FP - I submitted an FOI asking how many staff had been dismissed for breaching ICT policy in the last 5 years. The response? 1!

I am waiting for the response from the "panel" solicitors - its been around a month since I sent them initial documents - is this normal (sent a chaser this PM). Eating into my time.

I wonder if they realize I will be stating the position of the disaster recovery (public will want to know), state of ICT for real, Members having breached ICT without penalty, Porn on Member devices......I'd hate to do this but what choice will I have - nothing to lose!

I looked into Pro Bono up North East and the local Uni is closed until Mid Sept. Nothing else about.

I am hoping for a response from legals this week with a "yes" then I will submit the ACAS with a view to ET - if they say "no" I'm going to ask (paid) for a 2nd opinion.

So I am in the middle of the rock and the deep blue sea (sic) - back to original question how do people deal with this - I am trying to remain positive and creating a CV and networking - but without a "win" or decent ref for dismissal for breach of ICT policy for the short term I might be causing myself more damage than good (and burning potential bridges for later).....

Cheers all!

T

[FlamingParrot]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

This will make you laugh FP - I submitted an FOI asking how many staff had been dismissed for breaching ICT policy in the last 5 years. The response? 1!

Unf*ng believable!!!! :scared:

I am waiting for the response from the "panel" solicitors - its been around a month since I sent them initial documents - is this normal (sent a chaser this PM). Eating into my time.

Unfortunately it's the summer holidays and many people are either away or have the kids at home. Three months sounds like a long time but time does go by very quickly. The good thing these days is that the early conciliation process does give you an extra month to sort out legal advice, etc. as you only submit a claim AFTER you get the certificate.

I wonder if they realize I will be stating the position of the disaster recovery (public will want to know), state of ICT for real, Members having breached ICT without penalty, Porn on Member devices......I'd hate to do this but what choice will I have - nothing to lose!

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at that hearing! :bounce:

I looked into Pro Bono up North East and the local Uni is closed until Mid Sept. Nothing else about.

Yes, a lot of law clinics are run by universities and it is the summer holidays. :mmph: There are some other law centres though, however, one I've used is in London so not much use to you.

I am hoping for a response from legals this week with a "yes" then I will submit the ACAS with a view to ET - if they say "no" I'm going to ask (paid) for a 2nd opinion.

You can do the ACAS EC anyway, it's just an online form, the ET1 comes after that. :typing:

So I am in the middle of the rock and the deep blue sea (sic) - back to original question how do people deal with this - I am trying to remain positive and creating a CV and networking - but without a "win" or decent ref for dismissal for breach of ICT policy for the short term

The whole process does take time, claims submitted in December are scheduled to be heard in April or May, and you may not get a judgment after the hearing, it could take three months for judgment to come through. :mmph: It's all much quicker if they agree to settle but they never do until they see an actual claim being issued. :ohwell:

I might be causing myself more damage than good (and burning potential bridges for later).....

How so?

[Trev1234]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

I will type up the FOI tomorrow. I asked a number of questions 6-7 asking how many staff had been dismissed around various facets of ICT policy and EVERY ANSWER came back 1! Me!

Re burned bridges - if I get interviews and am honest I was dismissed for ICT policy then they are likely to reject me on this, rather than after 'winning' and thereby burning that opportunity/network.

Tricky answer to a tricky question!

T

[FlamingParrot]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

I will type up the FOI tomorrow. I asked a number of questions 6-7 asking how many staff had been dismissed around various facets of ICT policy and EVERY ANSWER came back 1! Me!

Re burned bridges - if I get interviews and am honest I was dismissed for ICT policy then they are likely to reject me on this, rather than after 'winning' and thereby burning that opportunity/network.

Tricky answer to a tricky question!

An interview is a time to sell yourself and not the time to mention that at all! :tinysmile_kiss_t4:

[Trev1234]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

Agreed - but inevitably one should be prepared as for previous refs!

[Trev1234]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

As promised FOI.....

Please provide me with the following information under the FOI Act 2000:

1. Number of staff dismissed for not following ICT policy for the last 5 years;

1.

2. Staff disciplined for possessing an untagged ICT device over the same period;

1.

3. Number of staff disciplined for non compliance of the Asset Guidance (I wrote!) AG over the past 5 years

1.

4. Number of staff disciplined for using equipment beyond restricted use over the past 5 years

1

5. Number of staff disciplined for using ICT equipment that had the potential to threaten the integrity of the Council network over the past 5 years;

1

Question

Please supply me with the number of staff who have been disciplined over the past 5 years for NOT logging their laptop onto the network at least once every 30 days to ensure that antivirus and security patches were installed.

We have not disciplined anyone for not logging their laptop onto the network

Is it just me then!?

T

[FlamingParrot]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

Is that really all you did to break their ICT Policy? Not to log your laptop on to the company network to check for updates?

There I was thinking it was the usual social networking malarkey or being caught posting inappropriate stuff somewhere from the company network.

Clearly not checking for updates is a serious offence whilst using the work computers to visit dodgy sites is perfectly fine. :lol:

[Trev1234]

Re: How do people keep chipper?

In a nutshell yep. I also didn't have a tagged device which was supplied to me (the guidance which I wrote prior to which there was nothing). The five questions reflect the allegations - i.e. did not log, using for personal use (though ICT policy allows), and the small issue of having a JD which states implicitly I must "evaluate equipment" and a policy that states "will vary dependent on service needs". I was also the guy in charge of ICT.....all of the use was OFF corporate network using an isolated laptop, without any social media incident or in fact anything. I did research the iCloud hack which is also my job and they frowned on that as well. I was in charge of network security (for which I achieved compliance) and we use iPads. I've also tested the network to ensure filters work and previously was in charge of ISP for schools.

For me the sanctions do not fit the "crime" and appear certainly over-harsh when considering the role. I would have thought an informal chat would have sufficed and for them to understand context. You have to understand the original allegation was theft, unproven and after 7 months this was the final charge.

T