Bujon - Employment Tribunal Help Please

[ritemaster]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

If they offered a settlement which was less than the earnings you've lost to date, would it be seen as unreasonable to decline it?

[Bujon]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

Umm that would be a bit of a concern. Part of me wished to just find another job and leave, but I opted to battle on and take them head on over the issue I guess. I suspect they won't wish to settle anyhow, they are just that way inclined. They carry an 'untouchables' attitude where they genuinely feel everyone who works for them should be thankful they have a job, and don't like anyone challenging that ethos.
I guess I'll tell the conciliation officer, I'm happy to conciliate in principle only on the condition of discussing an early settlement to save them having to go to tribunal and that they can proceed with an offer if they so wish, and in the meantime I'll be fully preparing for the hearing.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

Well the perpetrator is a serial bully, 6 staff have left because of that so called 'management style', so I really want to push it all the way (no-one has done this before), to at least open the door a little for others to potentially follow, which may make them address the company attitude towards bullying and harassment more broadly. Financial awards I'd be seeking are only my genuine losses. I was just wondering if there was a tactic I could use through conciliation talks which might allow them to acknowledge they're in the wrong, and that I'm the victim not the villain, or should I simply let it run it's course and simply say to the conciliation officer I'm not interested in discussions in order to prompt them to kick off? Maybe I'm over thinking it but the LRA talks at pre claim stage got absolutely nowhere!

The purpose of conciliation is to negotiate a settlement and settlements are usually agreed without any admission of liability, for commercial reasons, so very unlikely they'd ever admit to being in the wrong. :mmph:

[Bujon]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

Well the perpetrator is a serial bully, 6 staff have left because of that so called 'management style', so I really want to push it all the way (no-one has done this before), to at least open the door a little for others to potentially follow, which may make them address the company attitude towards bullying and harassment more broadly. Financial awards I'd be seeking are only my genuine losses. I was just wondering if there was a tactic I could use through conciliation talks which might allow them to acknowledge they're in the wrong, and that I'm the victim not the villain, or should I simply let it run it's course and simply say to the conciliation officer I'm not interested in discussions in order to prompt them to kick off? Maybe I'm over thinking it but the LRA talks at pre claim stage got absolutely nowhere!

[FlamingParrot]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

I'm beginning to realise that! I now have a conciliation officer pressing me to start negotiations through them for a possible resolution. The way I'm feeling is to play hard on that front and say I want to see justice done, so negotiations are futile as they will not get the resolution I'm seeking.

What sort of resolution is that?

If the respondents don't wish to go to tribunal then they can make a once only offer at an early stage to which I may or may not respond. How would you approach that side of things?

It all depends on the offer they make, bearing in mind the risk factor and the 'bird in the hand better than two in the bush' argument. :decision:

[Bujon]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

Ah good to hear it maybe costing them something to defend, but they use an external business services company for all HR advise and Litigation to include defense at tribunal. I think the insurance is backed by the same business services company or sister company.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

I put on my ET1 form a note that I offered the respondent a settlement figure 40% the amount I'll be claiming on the schedule of loss during pre claim conciliation, but that this was rejected, with only a rationale being offered! I hope that that will show a willingness to be reasonable and amicable in an attempt to resolve. I do think the strategy is to see if I'll go all the way, as they have nothing to lose until that point! They are being represented by an insurance business service provider.

Normally you wouldn't put settlement offers/proposals on the ET1, those are made separately by letter. Before submitting a claim I sent a letter before action with a figure that was a third of the amount on the schedule (which had not been produced yet). At that point the amount would have been acceptable since it had just been a couple of months and it would have saved all sides a lot of hassle and cost. As it stands, the respondent has probably spent more than that in legal fees alone, I don't think they had that kind of insurance given the way their business was run. Insurance companies can be quite picky with regards to what they are willing to pay for and under what circumstances. They always try their best not to pay. :lol:

[Bujon]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

I put on my ET1 form a note that I offered the respondent a settlement figure 40% the amount I'll be claiming on the schedule of loss during pre claim conciliation, but that this was rejected, with only a rationale being offered! I hope that that will show a willingness to be reasonable and amicable in an attempt to resolve. I do think the strategy is to see if I'll go all the way, as they have nothing to lose until that point! They are being represented by an insurance business service provider.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

You will not get justice.
The only thing that the Tribunal could give you is compensation (I'm assumung that re-instatement isn't likely).

This is something you can ask for in your ET1 under item 9.1 - what you want if your claim is successful. You can tick the box saying you' like to get your old job back and compensation of the one saying you want another job with same employer or associated employer and compensation. Most people do not seek reinstatement or even re-engagement simply because the working relationship with the respondent would have broken down beyond repair. :mmph:

If it's possible to get a settlement approaching the amount that a Tribunal could award you should do so.
You haven't yet touched the surface of the stress you are in for if this goes all the way.

Acceptable settlements are often estimated at around half what you've got on your schedule of loss. If you've found other work since being dismissal, earnings for the period(s) you've been working would be deducted from any award, which is otherwise capped at a year's worth of lost earnings. Benefits claimed (JSA but not HB) would be deducted from the final award. The respondent still has to pay that amount back to the DWP though. So if you've had work for six months and been unemployed for six months, your award would only be for six months in relation to loss of earnings, however, there are other bits added to the schedule such as wrongful dismissal and basic award and sometimes a 25% uplift for not following the ACAS code (if applicable). :grin:

The ET will also take into account your efforts to mitigate your loss, i.e. you'd have to show you were doing your best to find work. Their criteria for this may not necessarily be the same as that applied by the DWP for the purposes of JSA.

[mariefab]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

You will not get justice.
The only thing that the Tribunal could give you is compensation (I'm assumung that re-instatement isn't likely).
If it's possible to get a settlement approaching the amount that a Tribunal could award you should do so.
You haven't yet touched the surface of the stress you are in for if this goes all the way.

If this goes to a hearing the Tribunal will base their decision on the facts that they find. Some of those fact will be determined by the Tribunal deciding which version of the truth they believe, yours or the Respondents. You claim that your employer was unreasonable, if you look reasonable in comparison it could make it more likely that the Tribunal will believe your version of events.
A willingness to negotiate a settlement in order to avoid court action is reasonable.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

ET are not like flights where you miss it if late, they ( in my experience ) are not to hung up on times.

Except when it comes to the time to submit a claim. The ET will still accept a claim submitted out of time as they've no way of knowing when the clock started to run, however, the respondent can easily ask for the claim to be thrown out due to it being out of time merely by providing a copy of the termination letter or any other document which states you've been dismissed with effect from xx/xxx/xxxx. A friend of mine submitted a claim two or three days late and it was thrown out. :mmph:

When you are used to civil litigation in the county courts, you know it's possible to obtain default judgment as soon as the time for the defendant to acknowledge service of the claim or submit a defence is up, however the ET doesn't work quite like that.

I've missed many a deadline and its still proceeding.

Once the process has started, deadlines are not quite as crucial. I also missed a few deadlines for submitting certain things albeit I wasn't responsible for missing them, my solicitor was in charge and he agreed extensions with the other side quite easily. :thumb:

[Bujon]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

I'm beginning to realise that! I now have a conciliation officer pressing me to start negotiations through them for a possible resolution. The way I'm feeling is to play hard on that front and say I want to see justice done, so negotiations are futile as they will not get the resolution I'm seeking. If the respondents don't wish to go to tribunal then they can make a once only offer at an early stage to which I may or may not respond. How would you approach that side of things?

[cupidstunt]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

ET are not like flights where you miss it if late, they ( in my experience ) are not to hung up on times.

I've missed many a deadline and its still proceeding.

You have to bring it to the tribunal and they warn the respondent, if they still don't comply, they get an unless order, miss this and you have to explain why.

It's all part of the game, theres lots more silly tricks to come, before you even get to the main hearing.

[Bujon]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

Agreed and not my main concern. I'm confident I will win the case, just tried to spread the defensive requirements for them. Am quite astounded at their vigilance in defense to be honest.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

Just read your earlier thread.
Did you put anything in your ET1 about X not being an employee of the Company you worked for or that your employer had little duty of care?

Sometimes people who are not officially employees can be considered as such if the working relationship is such that it mimics the "master-servant" relationship of "official" employment.