Disnmissed before starting work.

[geoffrey]

A young man applied for a job that may occasionally bring him into contact with young people aged 16+ and he was therefore required to have CRB / DBS clearance at enhanced level. When asked at his interview about any convictions or cautions and similar he said that they only thing he had was a ticket fine for giving a 'V' sign to a street CCTV eight years ago and the interviewer said that this would be ignored..

However two days before starting work he was told that he had broken the contract even before he began as he did not disclose that he had a lifelong police record for disorder-related obscenity. However, all UK ticket fines are Penalty Notices for Disorder so that word disorder is always there and it appeared that the police had listed his 'V' sign as being obscene even though he had written evidence to show precisely what happened.

He has now applied for five alternative jobs and been rejected because of the disclosed record. They seem to be saying that giving that V sign is no problem but having a lifelong police record for disorder-related obscenity rules his application out on two counts.

He is a university graduate and a qualified youth worker so what if anything can he do about it other than work in a supermarket or whatever or leave the country?

[Kati]

Re: Disnmissed before starting work.

background to this question - http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...le-information

[teaboy2]

Re: Disnmissed before starting work.

Not really much you can do from an employment law side of things, as the employers are well within their rights to withdraw an offer of employment prior to starting date and even during the probationary period!

[MissFM]

Re: Disnmissed before starting work.

Oh not again Geoffrey!masroll:

I don't mean to be unkind but I'm finding these scenarios increasingly hard to believe and I'm sure that a decent solicitor could deal with this (recurring) one if it is, indeed, for real.

:santawalk:

[wales01man]

Re: Disnmissed before starting work.

Every action has a reaction in this case one moment of stupidity costs a lot

[geoffrey]

Re: Disnmissed before starting work.

I would like to assure Miss FM that all the threads that I post are real. I / we deal with many questions from young people and as senior advisor I only sent the ones that we cannot otherwise get an answer for to legal Beagles, hence the reason why most are unusual. Most come from young people who cannot afford a solicitor. Alleged discrimination issues (gender, sexual orientation etc) are difficult as the person concerned is simply told to make a claim of personal discrimination and there are many reasons why they do not wish to do that, including possible publicity. We deal with questions from all young people aged 11 to 29 irrespective of nationality, gender, sexual orientation religion or whatever. We maintain absolute confidentiality except in the case of reported child abuse or other serious crime. In many cases young people come to us as a last resort as they appear to get little satisfaction from the authorities. Over the past year, questions about gender discrimination against boys and young men have overtaken those relating to gender discrimination against girls and young women. The UKs modern practise of police recording and disclosing the most trivial offences using extremist language has been the most common problem raised with us in 2014 and we are in contact with the Ministry of Justice on this matter. We are volunteers in a small bi-national organisation and I personally give about 20 hours each week on average to helping young people, ALL young people. (It is what is called retirement).

[wales01man]

Re: Disnmissed before starting work.

Even I think the same as Miss FM with some of your posts no doubt you are genuine but some thread sin particular do not come out to good and believable the Immigrant one reads to some of us different to I expect how you meant it to be.
Rest assured many Beagles will help with answers

[geoffrey]

Re: Disnmissed before starting work.

MissFM finds my story above 'difficult to believe' With my senior voluntary involveme3nt with a youth organisation similar stories are in fact quite common. However, most who do not get a job working with juveniles because of a 100 year police record for a minor PND ticket-fine offence do not get quite as far as the young person instanced above but rather as soon as their offence is seen on their CRB / DBS enhanced disclosure. Almost all ticket fine offences ARE recorded for 100 years on the police computer and CAN be disclosed at any time on enhanced level CRB / DBS. Ours is a small organisation but we know of 13 instances where young people have not been able to work with children due to a ticket fine offence committed, usually, as a student.
In every case the offence cannot possibly render the person a danger to children but many employers (Schools, churches, youth organisations) will not proceed with any applicants who
have a CRB / DBS that discloses any offence with the words 'Obscene, Offending public decency, Disorder, Urinating and similar even if it can be proven, for example, that the 'Obscenity' or 'Offending public decency'; was giving a V sign to a CCTV or belching in the street.

These facts (but not the individual cases) can be checked with the police authorities and the Ministry of Justice if you do not believe me. There are believed to be thousands of such cases in the UK so my one example instanced above is something very common. Others have lost their job while they were in employment following the disclosures but I have no o idea of numbers.

Such is the level of concern that it is being debated at national level as what is happening is
outrageous. I understand that it is being debated following headlines 'British Extremism' in a continental newspaper.

I am a retired professional person and spend many hours every week working in a voluntary capacity to try to help people, mostly young people (as that is my area of expertise) or disadvantaged people and have no time whatever to post imaginary cases. The ones that I post are usually the complicated ones that we seem unable to get an answer for from other sources.


Benefits problems among students is far more complex to deal with that benefits for, say, the middle aged. Gender discrimination against boys and men is far more complex to deal with that gender discrimination against girls and women. Homophobic bullying of teenagers can be complex to deal with if the victims plead that they are not gay / lesbian.

My reward for doing this work is exampled with a letter that I have just received in a Christmas card. It says; Your help in my hour of darkness in 1999 has changed my life for the better beyond my wildest dreams. I have a lovely wife and two children and I have a nice house and a car and I am a school teacher but when I turned to you for help I was seriously considering suicide. It was like a horrible nightmare of the worst possible kind and I thought there was no escape.'

[wales01man]

Re: Disnmissed before starting work.

You seem to have a dislike of Police records ,they are there to protect us anyone who gets a record will have done something wrong and as I have said before we are all responsible for our actions and the aftermath.

I applaud for your work there are many who do voluntary and do not get the recognition they deserve good to see someone thanking you . I am sure MissFM is not doubting you .

Discrimination seems to be a very complex issue where a single word or action is deemed discrimination to some .

[geoffrey]

Re: Disnmissed before starting work.

I am supportive of police records and of their proper disclosure to protect children and national security etc. However the UK is very extreme in that it permits a minor indiscretion by someone of 'student age' e.g. belching in public or peeing behind a bush or giving a 'V' sign to a CCTV or littering to be given extremist language titles . e.g Outraging public decency and disorder (Penalty notice for Disorder. PND) and then stored and disclosed for the life of that person thereby preventing him / her from ever working with children. It has nothing whatever to do with safeguarding children. No other EC nation permits anything remotely like this. Their ticket fines are lower than UK ones and once paid they are never recorded and therefore cannot be disclosed. The PND ticket fine system was never intended to be used for violent or serious crime that should be dealt with by the courts. The UK has been shamed by continental media articles on this and action now seems very likely.