Dismissal after staff party

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

As far as I am aware , after 2 years service you can not just sack someone for gross misconduct. You have to investigate and follow the proceedure

In theory, yes. In reality, they play the game but once they've made up their mind, they just go on to build a case against you. Been there, done that, ages ago! :grin:

Having owned a Pub I would rather the staff asked for a drink I would have given them it as I often did than have them steal it which is theft if they drank the drink at the party all well and good but walking out with it in my book is stealing what else have they walked out with.
As for unfair dismissal that's for a tribunal to decide

It is a very different situation. In a pub, alcohol is what you sell and naturally you wouldn't want your staff to walk out with a bottle they haven't paid for, unless the owner specifically gifted it to them. In an office, alcohol would only be bought for special occasions, and the OP clearly said the staff were used to taking a bottle each after the party with the management's blessing. That's not exactly unusual, what's a little unusual is the timing (Xmas in July!!! :santa3 but I have walked out of offices with a bottle of something on more occasions than I can remember...

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

In theory, yes. In reality, they play the game but once they've made up their mind, they just go on to build a case against you. Been there, done that, ages ago! :grin:

It is a very different situation. In a pub, alcohol is what you sell and naturally you wouldn't want your staff to walk out with a bottle they haven't paid for, unless the owner specifically gifted it to them. In an office, alcohol would only be bought for special occasions, and the OP clearly said the staff were used to taking a bottle each after the party with the management's blessing. That's not exactly unusual, what's a little unusual is the timing (Xmas in July!!! :santa3 but I have walked out of offices with a bottle of something on more occasions than I can remember...

As far as I see it... The owner (company) did gift the drink to the employees.
The bottles were clearly labelled 'For Staff Use'.
Staff used them, end of story.:tinysmile_twink_t2:

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Having owned a Pub I would rather the staff asked for a drink I would have given them it as I often did than have them steal it which is theft if they drank the drink at the party all well and good but walking out with it in my book is stealing what else have they walked out with.
As for unfair dismissal that's for a tribunal to decide

They didn't have to ask.......
The drink was theirs in the first place.
Clearly labelled, "For Staff Use".
They were staff.
Not much else to say mate..:tinysmile_twink_t2:

[jon1965]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

I think there is some confusion, yes the bottles said for staff use but that does not mean for staff to take home . However I do think the general manager has maybe jumped the gun here.
How long have these staff been employed ?

[wales01man]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Still theft bin my book all those who disagree set up a company let your staff nick what they want and do what they want then come back on here when the company goes bust.
Agree for staff use not to take away

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

I think there is some confusion, yes the bottles said for staff use but that does not mean for staff to take home . However I do think the general manager has maybe jumped the gun here.
How long have these staff been employed ?

Had they been informed by the company at any time, that bottles were not allowed to be taken off the premises?
Answer appears to be a resounding NO.
Custom and practice over the years, has been established if staff members knew about this, and accepted it as 'the norm'.
'For Staff Use', may very well have meant drink it on the premises only, but without a clear instruction from management, it could also have meant, drink it anywhere.
Management are clearly at fault here, for not making the issue a clear and cut case.

[jon1965]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

John
Without seeing the terms of employment it is difficult to say. Custom and practice is also very difficult to show unless the previous manager is prepared to say that it was and he had been there long enough to form that custom.
If the employees had more than two years service they have a case for unfair dismissal as they were forced to resign however and payment ordered may be minimal if it is decided that it is gross misconduct . It is possible to win a tribunal but be out of pocket.
I am guessing this is a large chain of bars
I suspect that somewhere in the terms will be a clause about drinks must be consumed on the premises but without seeing these we can not tell . If it were me i would be getting the company HR involved with a grovelling apology but pointing out that process was not followed

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

John
Without seeing the terms of employment it is difficult to say. Custom and practice is also very difficult to show unless the previous manager is prepared to say that it was and he had been there long enough to form that custom.
If the employees had more than two years service they have a case for unfair dismissal as they were forced to resign however and payment ordered may be minimal if it is decided that it is gross misconduct . It is possible to win a tribunal but be out of pocket.
I am guessing this is a large chain of bars
I suspect that somewhere in the terms will be a clause about drinks must be consumed on the premises but without seeing these we can not tell . If it were me i would be getting the company HR involved with a grovelling apology but pointing out that process was not followed

Hi Jon,
From information posted on here, if correct, the practice of staff taking bottles home for many years, with apparently managements tacit or otherwise approval.
Would no doubt, be a very strong argument for the establishment of 'custom & practice', within the company.
It appears that the staff are gathering written statements from former management, and others, to back up their claim.
I would certainly proceed down this avenue of thought.
John

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Still theft bin my book all those who disagree set up a company let your staff nick what they want and do what they want then come back on here when the company goes bust.
Agree for staff use not to take away

Definition of theft........
In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
For staff use?
Is that the owner not giving permission, or transferring ownership to the staff?
I would say YES......:tinysmile_twink_t2:

[stevemLS]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Vital element of the offence of theft is that whatever was done was done dishonestly.

Would appear to me that there is absolutely no evidence of dishonesty.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Vital element of the offence of theft is that whatever was done was done dishonestly.

Would appear to me that there is absolutely no evidence of dishonesty.

I agree %100 Steve.

[jon1965]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

You are now mudding the waters with criminal and employment law. No one has suggested that they will be charged with theft although I am of the belief that most legal aid lawyers would not even try to defend it .

What needs to be looked at is if the manager acted lawfully and if the employees do not have two years service there will be little they can do.
The OP has not come back to answer the questions so it is pretty irrelevant discussing this.
The OP also said that they could get statements from previous managers, well trust me but people tend to disappear into the woodwork when asked to account especially if they still work for the company

[wales01man]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Have to wonder id there more to this than the drink leaving the bar?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Still theft bin my book all those who disagree set up a company let your staff nick what they want and do what they want then come back on here when the company goes bust.
Agree for staff use not to take away

Oh dear, you appear to be rather bitter! No-one is suggesting a company should let their staff nick what they want or do what they want, the OP clearly stated that it was customary for staff to take a bottle each after the party, which is a once-a-year event.

Even if they had, in fact, 'nicked' the bottles, that would hardly cause the company to go bust, since it was a one off.

Have to wonder id there more to this than the drink leaving the bar?

So do I, if they otherwise valued those employees, they would hardly dismiss them over that, they could just have been given a warning if it was thought what they did was wrong. :mmph:

[wales01man]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

I am not bitter but theft is theft