Employer problem - won't pay full wages

[lilstar4]

Hi

I have been employed since 2009. I am having various problems to do with my working pattern. However the latest problem is:

1. Last year my working pattern was agreed (although they have not given me a new contract or amendment to contract but that is another issue on its own). It was agreed that last year on X date I would return full time (I work full time for 20 odd weeks of the year and part time the rest).

I updated my payroll with the information earlier this month but it was not approved by my manager before the payroll cut off despite me sending the request earlier on this month.

2. My wages are 20 hours short for my wages due on the 31st of May. I get paid a salary and each month I am paid from the 1st to 31st of the month. As far as I can see I am not paid in arrears as such.

3. HR have said that I have to wait until the end of next month 30th June for the short fall. They said I could apply for an advance but this is not recommended.

I guess this would mess up tax/ni/pension conts.

4. What can I do? Am I entitled to compensation for the short fall in my wages?

[teaboy2]

Re: Employer problem - won't pay full wages

Hi

I have been employed since 2009. I am having various problems to do with my working pattern. However the latest problem is:

Please provide details of over problems, they can prove useful in the event the employer thinks their above the law?

1. Last year my working pattern was agreed (although they have not given me a new contract or amendment to contract but that is another issue on its own). It was agreed that last year on X date I would return full time (I work full time for 20 odd weeks of the year and part time the rest).

If you did return to full time on the agreed date, then it is part of your contract due to custom and practice, and could easily be proven by the hours on your wage slip! Though you should ask informally for your contract to be updated to show this.

I updated my payroll with the information earlier this month but it was not approved by my manager before the payroll cut off despite me sending the request earlier on this month.

What do you mean by updated your Payroll? And why was it not approved in time? - Do you mean, you sent in your time sheet or similar and the manager failed to sign it off and pass to Payroll department in time? Is this done per week or monthly? - as your short only by 20hrs which i would expect to be half a weeks pay, or in your case possibly a full week, given your working pattern.

2. My wages are 20 hours short for my wages due on the 31st of May. I get paid a salary and each month I am paid from the 1st to 31st of the month. As far as I can see I am not paid in arrears as such. Did you have to work a month in hand (first pay at end of second month) when you first started? If so then your paid a month in arrears i.e. what you earn in January is paid end of February. Are you sure your on salary, i refer to the updating of payroll info, which sounds like handing in time sheet and your stating your paid 20hrs short. If you were paid salary your wage is not based on hourly rate, but on days worked.

3. HR have said that I have to wait until the end of next month 30th June for the short fall. They said I could apply for an advance but this is not recommended.

Bull shit, by paying you short they are in breach of section 13 of the employment rights act 1996 and they should pay you the shortfall, minus any taxes once the shortfall becomes known (at least within 48-72hrs). Their is no need to take an advance, and any tax issue is a load of rubbish as it can easily be worked out.

I guess this would mess up tax/ni/pension conts.

4. What can I do? Am I entitled to compensation for the short fall in my wages?

see above

[lilstar4]

Re: Employer problem - won't pay full wages

see above

Hi thank you for your reply. I will discuss the other problems when I am home as don't have time to explain just now.

by updating my payroll I mean I have to electronically update the system when I change from full time to part time and vice versa.

I updated the system which needed approval before cut off which was 13 may but wasn't approved until yday so it's too late to be paid end of May.

I am on a salary I get paid from the 1st to last day of month on the last day off the month. When I started there was no week in hand I got paid from the day I started 16.8.9 to the. 31.8.09 on the 31st of August.

i have tired telling my magner and calling the hr department but they are saying they can't do anything. I don't want to get into any trouble

[teaboy2]

Re: Employer problem - won't pay full wages

Does the Payroll system show when you updated your information on the 1st? (i.e. is their a historic record of you doing so on the system - Print it off is their is)

If it does then your in the clear and they MUST pay you. If it doesn't then the employer could use subsection 4 of section 13 of the employment rights act 1996 to hide behind.

So if it does, you need to put in a formal request for payment stating they are in breach of section 13 employment rights act 1996, and payment is now due immediately.

You can not get into trouble for it because if they used your assertion of a statutory right to being paid against you, they would be in very deep water and i will personally come down on them like a tonne bricks on your behalf for you. And believe me they don't want to cross paths with me unless they got very deep pockets to give you a nice large little compensation pay out, whilst also keeping your job should you choose to stay!

There is no reason why they can not pay you as an advance and then deduct that off your next pay. All they have to do is pay you net amount of the shortage (after TAX and NI), then deduct it of your Net (After Tax and NI) amount of your next pay packet - That way your TAX and NI etc are not effected. That's how simply it is.

Another option for you would be to call ACAS and explain to them the situation as they can then contact your employer directly and tell them to pay you! Though whether that's of any use depends on which member of the ACAS team calls them and whether they are assertive and stand their ground, or whether they the opposite and easily persuaded. In most cases they are assertive though.

[lilstar4]

Re: Employer problem - won't pay full wages

Thank you for the reply.

On friday - payday - i raised this issue informally with my immediate line managaer. the response i got was that it was their understanding that they could not approve my full timw working until i showed up for work on the 27th. I went full time on the 26th but as my place of work was closed on the 26th it was the 27th I came into work. My holidays etc have all been already calc'd (last year they were done) on the basis i was coming into work full time from the 26th of may.

I told my manager that they techinally should not have even approved a retrospective working pattern - as per HR guidance - they said it was what they had been told by a higher manager but they would double check with that higher manager.

They came bck to me saying that all that was available to me was to apply for an advance that i wont get until the 13th. I told my manager i was really disappointed in him - as this had happened last year but they fixed it last year - i told him it was all agreed in sept 13 which dates I would be coming back full time from.

On friday i called HR - they changed there version of events and said that I may be able to get an emergency payment depending on the amount.

Ok I will explain what has happened to my working pattern - it feels complicated and i am very sorry about this.

- I have been employed since 2009 as a full time member of staff
- i am contracted 8-8 monday to friday 8-1 on a sat.
- when i started i was given a bit of paper which says i am on fixed hours and i would not work a sat but i would work my sat hours 8.30-1 on a thursday. so i worked 8.30- 5 Monday Tues Weds Friday and 8.30 - 1 on a Thursday.
- I did these hours until sept 11.
- In 2011 I started university and my employer accepted a change to my working pattern which would allow me to work full time during non university term time and part time when I was at university. My university semesters run from Sept - Dec and Jan to May. So my part time hours are different in January and September.
They knew my course was a 4 year course.
- this change was agreed before i had my uni timetables so they never agreed to me working any specific hours just the fact that when i was at uni i would work 16 hours and when i was not at uni i would work 37 hours.
- I thought this change was a permanent change. They never gave me any paperwork to say it was not a perm change.
- infact they never gave me any paperwork to confirm the amendment to my contract
-They did not follow the internal HR procedures as set out on our intranet.
-I did not receive an amendment to my contract
-In August 2012 (3 days before i went back partime - they had known since may i was going to go back part time as my course was 4 years) they told me that it was not a perm change - and that I had to apply again.
i told them this was not the case and they couldnt do this to me but they said i had to submit a new working pattern or they would mark me AWOL. I felt very forced to do this and had no choice as I needed my wages/job. they said there was no paperwork of the change [i have it as they gave it to me - i also gave a copy of the application to them] i told them it was not my fault.
-I applied again for the same working pattern
-They gave me a bit of paper saying it was a temp change
-They did not give me an amendment to my contract nor following the internal procedure such as leting me have a meeting to discuss.
-I then had to apply again for my working pattern in jan 13 - they then gave me a letter full of mistakes with dates.
- they later told me that i only had to submit 1 application per year.
- in may 2013 when i got my pay slip - a few days before payday i noticed my wages where short. i asked them and they said it was because i had not updated my payroll with the info that i was full time [NOBODY TOLD ME TO DO THIS - so they sorted it and i got paid the correct ammount of money]
- I did not get the paperwork for an amendment to my contact either - again not following the procedure
- Then in the summer of 2013 they told me if they made me part time I could not go back full time - my HR dept said that my local managers were wrong and had to establish if my change was a temp change or perm and if perm I was therefore always a full time employee.
-In 2013 I submitted my working pattern again to go part time/full time as I had done since 2011.
- They did not follow the procedure in agreeing my application - I did not get a meeting to discuss it as it says in the policy that I should.
-They then said that I have to average 24 hours over a 52 week period
- i have never done this before. Given I did not know my timetable in August - I couldn't say when I would come back to work full time...It has usually been the first week in May but my exams could run on.
-therefore in order to average 24 hours I have had to work 17 hours per week instead of 16 when part time and say I am part time for the whole of May as I didn't know when my exams would finish.
-They have not given me any paperwork to confirm this change
-my contract says I am a full time member of staff.

-I feel that my managers are not very nice to me - i have kept a note of incidnets that have happened that i wont post on here. Including taking a day off my annual leave for traveling to off the job training.

The rules about our contracts have changed and now guidance says this:

for all contracts or working pattern agreements, dating from 6 January 2014, a new procedure, for a new contractual clause, will strictly define the process for the compnay to change the working pattern with 3 months’ notice to meet a justifiable business need.
The total hours for which the employee is paid will not be changeable (unless the current 6-months’ notice of termination/re-employment is used) but the working pattern will be covered by this new contractual provision. ‘Working pattern’ means the times of the day, hours per day, days per week and weeks / months per year on which the employee is required to work. Where such change is needed, the manager will always try to agree a mutually convenient alternative pattern and start date. Only where this is not possible and the business need is compelling and all other alternatives have been considered will the manager follow the procedures to invoke the 3-months’ notice period to make the change.

Where any change is required of existing staff on old working pattern agreements (pre January 2014) that do not have any inbuilt flexibility, without mutual agreement, the change will still be a termination of contract and an offer of re-engagement on new terms. This should only be considered in exceptional circumstances, where there is no alternative, with strict adherence to procedural requirements which include giving 6 months’ notice of the change.

I feel I don't know where I stand - if I complain about my wages - they might not let me go back part time. I feel that right from the start it was a perm change but they won't have it that way.


I was contracted as a fixed term employee, but then last year they intro flexi - they said it was not a contractual change - but since then they have made us work until 6pm. i don't mind working till 6pm but I do mind working till 6pm on my short day when I am full time as that is my short day.

I really don't know what to do about my wages and my working pattern. I have lots of emails/paperwork to back up my side. I have an email that says i sent my manager the request on the 6th of May.

for the changes to the working patterns they have not followed the procedure and i do not have anything that agrees the change only the application.

[teaboy2]

Re: Employer problem - won't pay full wages

Thank you for the reply.

On friday - payday - i raised this issue informally with my immediate line managaer. the response i got was that it was their understanding that they could not approve my full timw working until i showed up for work on the 27th. I went full time on the 26th but as my place of work was closed on the 26th it was the 27th I came into work. My holidays etc have all been already calc'd (last year they were done) on the basis i was coming into work full time from the 26th of may.

I told my manager that they techinally should not have even approved a retrospective working pattern - as per HR guidance - they said it was what they had been told by a higher manager but they would double check with that higher manager.

They came bck to me saying that all that was available to me was to apply for an advance that i wont get until the 13th. I told my manager i was really disappointed in him - as this had happened last year but they fixed it last year - i told him it was all agreed in sept 13 which dates I would be coming back full time from.

On friday i called HR - they changed there version of events and said that I may be able to get an emergency payment depending on the amount.

Ok I will explain what has happened to my working pattern - it feels complicated and i am very sorry about this.

- I have been employed since 2009 as a full time member of staff
- i am contracted 8-8 monday to friday 8-1 on a sat.
- when i started i was given a bit of paper which says i am on fixed hours and i would not work a sat but i would work my sat hours 8.30-1 on a thursday. so i worked 8.30- 5 Monday Tues Weds Friday and 8.30 - 1 on a Thursday.
- I did these hours until sept 11.
- In 2011 I started university and my employer accepted a change to my working pattern which would allow me to work full time during non university term time and part time when I was at university. My university semesters run from Sept - Dec and Jan to May. So my part time hours are different in January and September.
They knew my course was a 4 year course.
- this change was agreed before i had my uni timetables so they never agreed to me working any specific hours just the fact that when i was at uni i would work 16 hours and when i was not at uni i would work 37 hours.
- I thought this change was a permanent change. They never gave me any paperwork to say it was not a perm change.
- infact they never gave me any paperwork to confirm the amendment to my contract
-They did not follow the internal HR procedures as set out on our intranet.
-I did not receive an amendment to my contract
-In August 2012 (3 days before i went back partime - they had known since may i was going to go back part time as my course was 4 years) they told me that it was not a perm change - and that I had to apply again.
i told them this was not the case and they couldnt do this to me but they said i had to submit a new working pattern or they would mark me AWOL. I felt very forced to do this and had no choice as I needed my wages/job. they said there was no paperwork of the change [i have it as they gave it to me - i also gave a copy of the application to them] i told them it was not my fault.
-I applied again for the same working pattern
-They gave me a bit of paper saying it was a temp change
-They did not give me an amendment to my contract nor following the internal procedure such as leting me have a meeting to discuss.
-I then had to apply again for my working pattern in jan 13 - they then gave me a letter full of mistakes with dates.
- they later told me that i only had to submit 1 application per year.
- in may 2013 when i got my pay slip - a few days before payday i noticed my wages where short. i asked them and they said it was because i had not updated my payroll with the info that i was full time [NOBODY TOLD ME TO DO THIS - so they sorted it and i got paid the correct ammount of money]
- I did not get the paperwork for an amendment to my contact either - again not following the procedure
- Then in the summer of 2013 they told me if they made me part time I could not go back full time - my HR dept said that my local managers were wrong and had to establish if my change was a temp change or perm and if perm I was therefore always a full time employee.
-In 2013 I submitted my working pattern again to go part time/full time as I had done since 2011.
- They did not follow the procedure in agreeing my application - I did not get a meeting to discuss it as it says in the policy that I should.
-They then said that I have to average 24 hours over a 52 week period
- i have never done this before. Given I did not know my timetable in August - I couldn't say when I would come back to work full time...It has usually been the first week in May but my exams could run on.
-therefore in order to average 24 hours I have had to work 17 hours per week instead of 16 when part time and say I am part time for the whole of May as I didn't know when my exams would finish.
-They have not given me any paperwork to confirm this change
-my contract says I am a full time member of staff.

-I feel that my managers are not very nice to me - i have kept a note of incidnets that have happened that i wont post on here. Including taking a day off my annual leave for traveling to off the job training.

The rules about our contracts have changed and now guidance says this:

for all contracts or working pattern agreements, dating from 6 January 2014, a new procedure, for a new contractual clause, will strictly define the process for the compnay to change the working pattern with 3 months’ notice to meet a justifiable business need.
The total hours for which the employee is paid will not be changeable (unless the current 6-months’ notice of termination/re-employment is used) but the working pattern will be covered by this new contractual provision. ‘Working pattern’ means the times of the day, hours per day, days per week and weeks / months per year on which the employee is required to work. Where such change is needed, the manager will always try to agree a mutually convenient alternative pattern and start date. Only where this is not possible and the business need is compelling and all other alternatives have been considered will the manager follow the procedures to invoke the 3-months’ notice period to make the change.

Where any change is required of existing staff on old working pattern agreements (pre January 2014) that do not have any inbuilt flexibility, without mutual agreement, the change will still be a termination of contract and an offer of re-engagement on new terms. This should only be considered in exceptional circumstances, where there is no alternative, with strict adherence to procedural requirements which include giving 6 months’ notice of the change.

I feel I don't know where I stand - if I complain about my wages - they might not let me go back part time. I feel that right from the start it was a perm change but they won't have it that way.


I was contracted as a fixed term employee, but then last year they intro flexi - they said it was not a contractual change - but since then they have made us work until 6pm. i don't mind working till 6pm but I do mind working till 6pm on my short day when I am full time as that is my short day.

I really don't know what to do about my wages and my working pattern. I have lots of emails/paperwork to back up my side. I have an email that says i sent my manager the request on the 6th of May.

for the changes to the working patterns they have not followed the procedure and i do not have anything that agrees the change only the application.

Lilstar, all the extra info regarding contract and changes is just going to over complicate the issue. The point is they have not paid you your full wage for last month. There is no excuse in law for them to make such deductions, in fact, they are obliged in law to remedy the matter by paying you the difference as soon as the issue comes to light! They can say whatever they want about their internal systems and procedures, but it doesn't change the LAW and the law takes precedence over any of their internal systems and procedures. At the end of the day, if you worked those hours and if your contract states your to be paid in full each month on the xx date of each month, then they are legally and contractually obliged to pay you what is owed to you for the hours worked.

Take the advance/emergency payment because at the end of the day, they the employer will have to make sure you pay the right amount of tax and NI out of your wage. Which is not difficult to work out!

Regarding the issue of education and right to time off for education, well heres some info for you - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/63D - Now its not a universal right. I.e. not everyone can start educational course or training course and demand time off, however such educational course or training and the end qualification is likely to be of benefit to the employer. Such as , for example, training in accounting whilst working for the accounts department of a company, then you would likely satisfy the conditions required.

Also why didn't you give them a copy of the paperwork that they said they did not have, when you said above that you had copies in brackets? This would likely have countered their arguments. Where as now your stuck in a situation where things have become overly complicated.

And remind the employer they also have legal obligations to provide your with amendments to your contract for both parties to sign and have a copy of, as well as legal obligations to following their own internal procedures in regards to the applications you made (hold meetings etc). If they still fail to provide you amendments to contract to sign, then don't worry about it, keep writing everything down in a precise and factual manner, that way you have a full and comprehensive list of all incidents which would be vital evidence should the employer, decide to unfairly dismiss you. And just so you know, your contract of employment, regardless of having to make applications etc etc, started in 2009. No amount of applications changes that, and no other contract stating alternative start dates supersedes it your original start date or original contract or terms (accept where you agreed to different terms i.e. change to hours and working patterns). This is due to continuous employment rules/law. So for example if they wanted to make you redundant, they would have to work your redundancy pay out from when you originally started working for the company

[lilstar4]

Re: Employer problem - won't pay full wages

Ok thanks for your help. I have given my employer a copy of all there documentation and told them they haven't followed procedure but don't think they care. I know I don't have a statutory work to change my working pattern due to study but it was contractual. I have since raised it with them online to hr that my pay is short.

However the jist of it is that I think I will just need to put up with it until the end of June. I think they have done it to me on purpose but oh well I will just have to leave it.

Thanks so much for your information.