Demotion or gross misconduct

[teaboy2]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

About 3 months ago my manager had a informal chat with me instigated by the director in question about my performance nothing was wrote down also the chat was more a case of your not doing this and that instead of is there anything we can do to help or support you no guilde line were set out about how to move forward. It was also done one the shop floor in front of a shop floor worker. I did not think that this was appropriate ferther more I find out that this lad new all about what was said I have never had anything documented regarding performance in my 10years of service

Informal chats do not count. They would need documented proof of formal performance reviews.

[Massi]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

Informal chats do not count. They would need documented proof of formal performance reviews.

Well they have humiliated me enough at work so now I'm on sick leave!! First time in my 10 year service with them. An investigation is now happening due to my performance? Can I raise a grievance about the whole situation at this point? I have still had no written conformation about anything. The hr manager said he was doing an investigation in to the whole situation which will include witness statements about my performance. I did have a informal chat 12 months ago with my previous manager but to my knowledge nothing was documented I assume if it was it would be in my file, therefore a statement would not be needed? I need some advice on where to go now. Thanks

[Massi]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

Well they have humiliated me enough at work so now I'm on sick leave!! First time in my 10 year service with them. An investigation is now happening due to my performance? Can I raise a grievance about the whole situation at this point? I have still had no written conformation about anything. The hr manager said he was doing an investigation in to the whole situation which will include witness statements about my performance. I did have a informal chat 12 months ago with my previous manager but to my knowledge nothing was documented I assume if it was it would be in my file, therefore a statement would not be needed? I need some advice on where to go now. Thanks

I was called in to work today to attend an investigatory meeting, which to be honest I didn't see the point of as she showed no intrest in my answers to the questions raised. They said they have written statements from people, one saying I dropped some metal legs on the floor and they got scratched!! There was never a complaint about this. It seems to me they have been digging! When I did ask about evidence she said this can be addressed at the disciplinay hearing if there is one! I also have the issue that if, I'm sure this does goes to a disciplinary I don't have a rep, nobody at work wants to do this as they feel life could be made difficult for them at work. Just shows what kind of company I'm dealing with. Any advice would be appreciated thank you.

[teaboy2]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

Is that the best she had, You dropped metal legs on the floor and they got scratch. That's not performance related at all, that's pure accident, and if they hope to rely on that, well they better start putting their hands in their wallet now and giving you a few grand, equal to what your redundancy amount would be if they made you redundant is what you should consider as a minimum pay off.

What were the legs for, were they stock that was for sale? Did they sell and the standard price?

Best not to issue grievance till after disciplinary outcome, then you can hit them with both an appeal and a grievance - Double the work for them! Plus they will have given you copies of minutes from the disciplinary, ask for copies from the investigatory meeting too, and have copies of all evidence documented that they are using - Make sure you ask for copies of all evidence including witness statements (don't fall for they contain the witness names and details as they can be blanked out). And make sure you have them at least 48 hours before the disciplinary, any later than that, you can contact them requesting the meeting be rearrange so you may have more time to review the evidence they sent you in order to prepare for the hearing.

[Massi]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

There was 18 questions in total but all clutching at straw questions
another was I think my role is a admin role as a supervisor yes some of my role is admin like any other supervisor paper work needs to be done what sort of question is that.

the legs in question went out on a sample job but no come back from customer or sales rep so I can't see how it was a problem if I had scratched them then I would have sprayed than or got some more out of stock.

Another one was 2 plastic end caps missed off a job as soon as I realised they missed I spoke the the sales rep there was 3 days before the customer was due to see this table I posted them to the sales rep as he requested and everything was fine the customer was non the wiser I could understand if I did nothing or didn't send the legs

it just feels like there going all out and trying!!! To find something so they can justify what they did to me

[teaboy2]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

certainly sounds like clutching at straws to me, lets just wait see what the out come of the next hearing is though for now. Then we can really hit them hard if they do dismiss you or give you a final written. Anything below a final written, and you will have to decide if it is worth pursuing, and risking your job over.

[Massi]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

Thanks for all your advice and help so far teaboy2
i will keep you posted on what happens next

[teaboy2]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

Your welcome Massi.

[Massi]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

It's going to disciplinary like I didn't know that was going to happen
I have one or two questions that I hope that u can help with

• i got the letter inviting me to the disciplinary with 8 statements about poor performance 3 have dates but the other 5 have not also they are all typed and not hand written and singed is this correct procedure?
• Can the investigation be carried out by a HR adviser I thought HR was meant to sit on the face?
• The meeting will be carried out by the HR manager is this correct your not telling me the two have not spoke about this as they work in the same office?

[teaboy2]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

Do the statements contain names etc?

Can you post up copies of the statements? It is odd that their are no dates on 5 of them and i suspect the dates on the other two were just plucked from the air etc.

I wouldn't worry about the HR adviser and HR manager and their roles, its pretty clear the whole thing is biased against you from the beginning by the fact they used the excuse of you stopping off at home for a toilet break for starting this whole procedure.

Was their anything provided, evidence wise, or said about you stopping for the toilet break in the letter?

Did they say in the letter if it was for misconduct, gross misconduct or capability? - because if they are relying heavily on performance that is capability.

On a side note, how is the company doing financially wise? as they maybe looking for reason to dismiss you rather than have to pay you redundancy money!

Ohhh and also do you have any recollection of the instances in which the statements refer too?

[Massi]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

Well I got a final written warming and redeployment but not in a supervisory position

lucky for me I spoke to a friend that knew a trade union rep who come to the hearing
in the hearing my rep asked to see the policy on use of company vehicles they pulled out my contract that I signed in 2005 in the policy it was brief and didn't say much on the fact but this has been updated in 2009 I have never seen this but the hr manager said that I had worked here for long enough to know
My rep also pointed out that during my time at work no formal training was given to me
the hr manager had to except some responsibility for the facts but still I got a final written and demotion
as far as I can see 1 down from being sacked I know that my contract dose not state that demotion can be used as part of the disciplinary but they are trying to use it I have to go in on Tuesday to see the director that I seen in the first place so he got his wish but know I know that demotion is something I have to agree to and that they knew this that is the reason for the first meeting I have come to realise that the company I once thought was fair is a Micky mouse firm with no idea

[teaboy2]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

Issue an appeal letter appeal the decision stating that if the final warning and demotion as the result of the unfair disciplinary meeting is not recinded, you will consider taking legal action for breach of contract and constructive dismissal. Hand it to the director, outlining all their failures.#

As per the change in contract and the HR manager saying "you have been their long enough to know". Well a contract can not be changed without written signature, so point out in the appeal letter, as you never saw a copy of the new term and as such were never asked to sign consenting to the new term in your contract, then the new term is no part of your contract and the original contract from 2005 is still enforce.

Make note in the letter also that the director had previously told you to take demotion or face dismissal, so the out come of the disciplinary was the same as what the director originally offered you (which you originally accepted under duress, and therefore rescinded upon taking advise. Which led to the disciplinary action being taken) therefore making the disciplinary not only unfair but clearly biased too - Not to mention the fact the disciplinary was only put forward when you retracted your agreement to demotion which was originally agreed under duress.

And add at the end, that until a fully independent investigation and appeal in to your disciplinary is carried out, you will be continuing in your role as supervisor. Point out that it is your believe that they are looking for excuses to restructure by redeploying you (another breach of contract term on place of employment) and demotion, to save on making your position redundant and paying you potential redundancy pay should you opt for that over any other position offered to you.

If they deny the redundancy allegation, just say, well that's exactly what it looks like!! Especially when they are taking the piss out of the fact you stopped of at home, during your own time where you were working over time (For which you were not being paid extra for), to go to the toilet! Which is what they originally used to start these proceedings which the director requested you take a demotion of face dismissal prior to disciplinary procedures being started.

At this point i suggest you speak to ACAS as they can mediate between you and the employer, and lead you through to taking tribunal action - Plus sometimes, once ACAS becomes involved, employers have been known to back down as a result of realising your serious of taking things to tribunal. Where we here can still advise you on points of law and your rights still.

[Massi]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

They also lied to me by stating the claims aganist my manager using the vehicle was authorised
to protect this manager they looked back on the tracker to see if I had used the van in the past I had but with consented but my manager who is denying this but I dong know how to prove this?

[teaboy2]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

Lol simple proof of consent is the fact they would have given you the keys, and would have noticed and called the police if the Van went missing without their knowledge. They clearly knew you were driving the van since you were working for them and had to go to the other factory to complete the job you were doing.

[Massi]

Re: Demotion or gross misconduct

I bet the meeting tomorrow will end in offering me redundancy also teaboy2 is there any tamp late greavence letters anywhere you know of?