Wrongly handled?

[peter p]

Re: Wrongly handled?

Thanks again Teaboy2 and Charitynjw for the above. to answer some of the points,
If we referred the Police to this thread it has been openly admitted in my posts that she was party to the theft-could this be used against her?
The goods were removed from the premises before action was taken, I did think they had been-sorry if I mislead anyone.
The company is very large, its Hong Kong based and has three or more brands in the UK with at least 2 of their stores under 2 different brand names in most UK towns and City's.
My SD keeps going on about she can't afford a solicitor-legal aid? or duty solicitor?
Good point about the company calling in the Police to investigate the branch-the discrepancies on all stock checks have always been large and for a long periods.
There is no evidence against my SD except the word of her colleague, not even the CCTV footage from the till!
Comments all taken on board will see what happens next-letter on hold for time being.

[teaboy2]

Re: Wrongly handled?

Thanks again Teaboy2 and Charitynjw for the above. to answer some of the points,
If we referred the Police to this thread it has been openly admitted in my posts that she was party to the theft-could this be used against her?
The goods were removed from the premises before action was taken, I did think they had been-sorry if I mislead anyone.
The company is very large, its Hong Kong based and has three or more brands in the UK with at least 2 of their stores under 2 different brand names in most UK towns and City's.
My SD keeps going on about she can't afford a solicitor-legal aid? or duty solicitor?
Good point about the company calling in the Police to investigate the branch-the discrepancies on all stock checks have always been large and for a long periods.
There is no evidence against my SD except the word of her colleague, not even the CCTV footage from the till!
Comments all taken on board will see what happens next-letter on hold for time being.

I can not see it being a problem that you stated your SD may have been a party to theft as at the time, you were not aware that she had a statutory defence, that being she had reason to belief that its was not theft as the company, via the manager had allowed all staff to do the same etc. The police will see that themselves when reading the thread. And if as you said you had evidence to show it was common practice within the branch then i can't see your earlier statement prior to knowing my thoughts (and bluebottles thoughts as an ex police man) on the matter would make any difference to be honest given the rest of what you said about the incident etc

If they have not evidence other than the other employees statement, then that means the only evidence is hear say only.

Duty Solicitor doesn't cost anything.

[charitynjw]

Re: Wrongly handled?

Hi Teaboy,

If I were Dixon of Dock Green, if the employer insisted on going ahead with the complaint, I would then insist on a complete check on stock levels, going back a year or so, in order to investigate the evidence of a culture of this kind of activity over a prolonged period of time.
I would then allow a reasonable period in order for manager(s) to change their trousers!
It reminds me of an unfair dismissal case where an employee was made a scapegoat in order to cover up, or at least divert suspicion from, the shenanigans of the real culprits, who were stealing £thousands.
The end result of an ET was a big payout to the employee.
Ev'ning all!

[teaboy2]

Re: Wrongly handled?

Hi Teaboy,

If I were Dixon of Dock Green, if the employer insisted on going ahead with the complaint, I would then insist on a complete check on stock levels, going back a year or so, in order to investigate the evidence of a culture of this kind of activity over a prolonged period of time.
I would then allow a reasonable period in order for manager(s) to change their trousers!
It reminds me of an unfair dismissal case where an employee was made a scapegoat in order to cover up, or at least divert suspicion from, the shenanigans of the real culprits, who were stealing £thousands.
The end result of an ET was a big payout to the employee.
Ev'ning all!

Hi Charity

Your post above sumed up nicely what the employer should actually be doing when allegations such as "but everyone was doing" or "i thought it was normal procedure as the manager allowed with others" etc.

As it does sound to me like SD and the other member of staff are being made scapegoats, especially as it was mentioned in a few post backs that the other member of staff and the manger had some sort of disagreement or didn't get along because of something. Its just SD was dragged into it by what the other member of staff stated when caught.

Thats how i see it, and i see her defence being on the grounds that the manager was allowing it so thought it was standard procedure and customary practice in that branch. Which it could well be if it had been going on long enough. Plus the fact SD herself never held said items in her possession in any case. So in my opinion SD involvement was De Minimis as she was not a party to any actual act of theft of stock.

Regarding Dixon of Dock Green - Unfortunately that was before my time am afraid and i not seen any reshowing of it that i recall, though i did love to watch repeats of on the buses on ITV in the 80's and early 90's and off course even now on ITV 3 when they show them - Though unfortunately we wouldn't get away with what Stan and Jack used to get up to nowadays lol.

[charitynjw]

Re: Wrongly handled?

Regarding Dixon of Dock Green - Unfortunately that was before my time am afraid and i not seen any reshowing of it that i recall, though i did love to watch repeats of on the buses on ITV in the 80's and early 90's and off course even now on ITV 3 when they show them - Though unfortunately we wouldn't get away with what Stan and Jack used to get up to nowadays lol.

My dad told me he used to watch it when he was a young'un!

[bluebottle]

Re: Wrongly handled?

A manager would be deemed to have executive authority. There are a number of provisions, under the Criminal Law, which hold managers liable for criminal acts committed by bodies corporate (companies), along with directors, company officers and company secretaries. Being a manager has its upside, but it also has its downside and this is one such downside. Also, it is likely that an assumption or inference would be made that the manager had delegated authority from senior management. My opinion is that the employer is heading for trouble and the best advice any legal professional could give them is to try and patch things up with the employee(s) concerned and shut up PDQ, as a police investigation could lead to HMRC paying the employer a visit to check their VAT, PAYE and NI records, as well as scrutinising their Corporation Tax returns.

[peter p]

Re: Wrongly handled?

Colleagues visit to Police Station for "informal" interview-The interview was taped, she was not given or offered a duty solicitor and she was told that if she wrote a letter of apology to the company that would be the end of it. She felt this was said to get her to admit to the accusation and so they could prosecute both of them on that admission and therefore refused, she admitted nothing during the interview The Police claim the delay has been due to workload and told her as she had refused to sign the " apology" it may go to court. They also asked her for my SD's phone number from her. Total value of good £9.25.
I have my thoughts on this but Bluebottles opinion would be welcomed.

[smileyculture]

Re: Wrongly handled?

I met a shoplifter who stole a £1.80 hair shampoo, in prison, so be warned. Should have left well alone.

[bluebottle]

Re: Wrongly handled?

It sounds to me that the Codes of Practice under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE) were not complied with, this being evidenced by the failure to provide or offer access to the Duty Solicitor. Were the colleagues informed of their rights under PACE? This is a legal requirement. The tape-recording of the interview is also a legal requirement under PACE. My opinion is that the colleagues need to seek professional legal advice from a legal professional specialising in Criminal Law, particularly, Criminal Defence.

[bluebottle]

Re: Wrongly handled?

I met a shoplifter who stole a £1.80 hair shampoo, in prison, so be warned. Should have left well alone.

Who heard this case, a District Judge, Circuit Judge or Justices of the Peace?

[smileyculture]

Re: Wrongly handled?

No idea, but they were sentenced in Kent and ended up in Stanford hill, I think they were given 3 months but were out quickly as appealed. Not first offence might add, but harsh wake up call.

[smileyculture]

Re: Wrongly handled?

Just to add, I don't think people fully understand just how good and bad the system can be. I saw a 32 year lifer put back 5 years for having an empty whisky bottle found in his hostel leading up to release. The reason given for the ship out, was his crime was drink related. Also saw a few lifers who could not face release and absconded just prior and then give themselves up, the next day. Also lots who should never have been in prison. Plenty more that were in the right place though.

[MissFM]

Re: Wrongly handled?

Colleagues visit to Police Station for "informal" interview-The interview was taped, she was not given or offered a duty solicitor and she was told that if she wrote a letter of apology to the company that would be the end of it. She felt this was said to get her to admit to the accusation and so they could prosecute both of them on that admission and therefore refused, she admitted nothing during the interview The Police claim the delay has been due to workload and told her as she had refused to sign the " apology" it may go to court. They also asked her for my SD's phone number from her. Total value of good £9.25.
I have my thoughts on this but Bluebottles opinion would be welcomed.

Well - we're in Kafka country now Peter P!

Sorry not to be Bluebottle or to offer definitive advice - but really!

It's still my belief that identifying a real person high enough in the food chain to apply common sense would be the way forward.

Police taped interviews indeed! Either they're complete idiots or someone is trying ridiculously hard to cover their backside.

[MissFM]

Re: Wrongly handled?

My dad told me he used to watch it when he was a young'un!

[wales01man]

Re: Wrongly handled?

Why is this getting to slagging off the Police now,a crime may have been committed so quite rightly they should investigate if it was a taped interview the person interviewed had a right to a copy of the tape and the right to remain silent, until this is resolved the SD must be worrying herself get it over with should be the advice