Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

[Eloise01]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Thanks again for sound advice Eloise....yes, they were our thoughts re DIY also, just keep that separate. Initially as we were so upset and angry, we felt like putting up a fight, but as you rightly point out, it's his job etc at stake. They have all the evidence they need that he did receive payment from another place whilst off sick, therefore his case is just a very, honest and humbling account of the true events. Hands up, yes I was stupid, wasn't thinking it through, nor thought of legal or disciplinary consequences etc etc. we just hope there's some humility in their decision, and fingers crossed

I'll keep mine crossed too. But you are right - hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it? If you had known what you were getting in to, you'd have done things differently. But in your mind it was all above board and so you never gave a thought to how it might look if someone found out. Do let us know how it goes - and if it doesn't work out as we hope, then we'll have a look at appealing the decision. Nothing lost in trying.

[bluebottle]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

I feel you have summed up perfectly exactly why Employment Law needs reforming. My experience of it is that is is wide open to abuse and is, sadly, widely abused by unscrupulous employers, who then give honest and caring employers a bad name they do not deserve. Mud sticks comes to mind.

Employers who constantly badger the politicians to change Employment Law in their favour, more often than not, are involved in dodgy dealings, including tax and VAT irregularities. I found that during the course of investigations as a CID officer.

Employment Law, as it currently stands, needs to be fed through the shredder, both sides made to sit down and discuss what is needed like rational mature adults, not the juvenile way some employers' organisations behave. Trade Unions have learned to use the law, rather than call people out on strike at the drop of a hat. It is now time for employers to learn some harsh lessons in treating people fairly and as human beings, not commodities to be disposed of at will.

I disagree. Deal with the "DIY incidents" seperately, rationally and calmly. Your OH cannot afford to get into a ****ing contest with the employer here because they are, without getting into the merits and demerits of employment law (or any other law), caught bang to rights on the working whilst off sick. It doesn't matter what the "alternative explanation" for this is - the employer has sufficient to form a reasonable belief that he worked whilst off sick, and that is all they need. And to be balanced in this, he may not have appreciated the fact that he was doing exactly that, but he did. He delivered Yellow Pages, which is a remunerated employment, and he received payment for that remunerated task.

Yes, he did some DIY while off sick (assuming he did) but he did not accept any payment for it (or didn't do any for the neighbours if he didn't) and wouldn't dream of asking for money for helping someone out. End of. Say nothing more on this. Stick to the simplest and shortest explanation - don't try to explain or go further. He didn't, end of story.

Demanding proof or getting into a bunfight over what is a relatively unimportant detail may simply wind things up a notch, and this is the time to wind them down, be reasonable and don't get confrontational. The aim here is to save his job, his pension and so on - not to score points. Point scoring is only a viable entertainment if you are in an unassailable position, and he isn't. There are vague indications here, albeit no guarantees, that the employer isn't looking for a dismissal in this - you do not want them to change their minds about that. I want to be very clear - based solely on the OP's version of events, because that is the only one that I have, and accepting it as a credible explanation for what happened, I am also absolutely and fully convinced that a dismissal here would be upheld by a tribunal. So the OP's husband has one shot at this, through the disciplinary process.

[Eloise01]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

I feel you have summed up perfectly exactly why Employment Law needs reforming. My experience of it is that is is wide open to abuse and is, sadly, widely abused by unscrupulous employers, who then give honest and caring employers a bad name they do not deserve. Mud sticks comes to mind.

Employers who constantly badger the politicians to change Employment Law in their favour, more often than not, are involved in dodgy dealings, including tax and VAT irregularities. I found that during the course of investigations as a CID officer.

Employment Law, as it currently stands, needs to be fed through the shredder, both sides made to sit down and discuss what is needed like rational mature adults, not the juvenile way some employers' organisations behave. Trade Unions have learned to use the law, rather than call people out on strike at the drop of a hat. It is now time for employers to learn some harsh lessons in treating people fairly and as human beings, not commodities to be disposed of at will.

I don't think we can solve the problems of the law - and employment law has as many flaws as any other kind of law - here. And nor do I support changes made by this government. But I would have to point out that there are just as many unscrupulous employees, making claims they know cannot succeed at great cost to employers who cannot recover that expense, simply to try and get a settlement. The story is not one sided.

[bluebottle]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

I don't think we can solve the problems of the law - and employment law has as many flaws as any other kind of law - here. And nor do I support changes made by this government. But I would have to point out that there are just as many unscrupulous employees, making claims they know cannot succeed at great cost to employers who cannot recover that expense, simply to try and get a settlement. The story is not one sided.

HMCTS are very good at weeding out vexatious and frivolous ET claims. The claims made by Boy George Osborne that the majority of claims are malicious, vexatious, etc., are, I understand, a gross exaggeration. Would he have labelled the Michalak case vexatious? Knowing him, yes. However, the Tribunal hearing that particular case made the right decision, given the circumstances, and hit those responsible where it hurt them most, in their pockets, as well as the individuals who bullied and harassed Dr Michalak.

Again, you have highlighted further reasons why existing Employment Law needs tearing up and rewriting.

[sairlp]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Hi all...
just thought I would update, my husband has just recieved a call at work from his line manager, asking to postpone the Disciplinary Hearing, until a later date. The reason being, he himself is not going to be around and the other manager above him, also involved is off sick.
It was meant to take place this Thursday, goodness knows when it will be now...been hanging over our heads for far too long as it is!
Oh well, I guess this may be quite a positive sign ,if they considered it too bad then they wouldn't keep delaying it and employing him...fingers remain crossed

[Eloise01]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

I would tend to agree - but do not forget to add this to your mitigation, pointing out that the length of time taken to deal with it and the postponements have greatly added to his stress and amount to a punishment in themselves to have this hanging over him for so long. Nicely, of course.

[bluebottle]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Just a thought, but it makes you wonder if they have discovered something that could cause considerable embarrassment to the NHS if this disciplinary hearing goes ahead. It's not beyond the realms of possibility. What is your view, Eloise?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Is the "sick" manager putting up shelves or redecorating? :rofl:

[Eloise01]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Just a thought, but it makes you wonder if they have discovered something that could cause considerable embarrassment to the NHS if this disciplinary hearing goes ahead. It's not beyond the realms of possibility. What is your view, Eloise?

I doubt it. You must recall your days in the police (although perhaps you never came across disciplinaries!). It's called public sector mentality - there is always somebody crucial off sick (although why they are crucial is never clear in an organisation of thousands!), at a conference, or whatever. I've been helping a friend out with a grievance in a local authority recently, and it painfully reminds me of watching paint dry:

• Grievance submitted - policy requires acknowledgement in two working days - five days later after employee threatens to escalate, manager emails to say hasn't read it yet but has got it

• Two more weeks pass - policy target for completion of first stage is ten days from submission - not a word so employee escalates it.

• Three days pass - Head of HR reples that they have it and will appoint someone to deal with it speedily.

• Ten days later someone is appointed and arranges a meeting two weeks after that - and we still haven't gooten to the grievance stage yet!

• Meeting held. Black hole reappears for two weeks. Employee asks what is going on. Has telephone conversation that appears to amount to "very little but we have been ever so busy with it". Told to expect a phone call that evening to confirm whether pre-hearing resolution is possible. That was a week ago.

What is this complex grievance about? In a nutshell, employer was told at the beginning of November that the employee's consultant regarded them as having a disability, manager refused any reasonable adjustments without any medical advice being taken and no referral made to OH. This is one of the country's largest lcoal authorities, and the manager who refused the adjustments is the authorities most senior advisor on equalities!

Never look for a conspiracy when simple incompetance can explain everything!

[bluebottle]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

I doubt it. You must recall your days in the police (although perhaps you never came across disciplinaries!). It's called public sector mentality - there is always somebody crucial off sick (although why they are crucial is never clear in an organisation of thousands!), at a conference, or whatever. I've been helping a friend out with a grievance in a local authority recently, and it painfully reminds me of watching paint dry:

• Grievance submitted - policy requires acknowledgement in two working days - five days later after employee threatens to escalate, manager emails to say hasn't read it yet but has got it

• Two more weeks pass - policy target for completion of first stage is ten days from submission - not a word so employee escalates it.

• Three days pass - Head of HR reples that they have it and will appoint someone to deal with it speedily.

• Ten days later someone is appointed and arranges a meeting two weeks after that - and we still haven't gooten to the grievance stage yet!

• Meeting held. Black hole reappears for two weeks. Employee asks what is going on. Has telephone conversation that appears to amount to "very little but we have been ever so busy with it". Told to expect a phone call that evening to confirm whether pre-hearing resolution is possible. That was a week ago.

What is this complex grievance about? In a nutshell, employer was told at the beginning of November that the employee's consultant regarded them as having a disability, manager refused any reasonable adjustments without any medical advice being taken and no referral made to OH. This is one of the country's largest lcoal authorities, and the manager who refused the adjustments is the authorities most senior advisor on equalities!

Never look for a conspiracy when simple incompetance can explain everything!

For your information, Eloise, I dealt with a lot of Civil Servants in the latter part of my police career. Also, a family member has worked for my local authority for the past 31 years. Believe me, I came across the incompetence you speak of and witnessed, at first hand, Civil Servants of Principal Officer grade and higher back-pedalling like fury when they realised they had either got it wrong or been caught abusing their position. I won't go into the whys and wherefores because I am still subject to the OSA, but some cases were particularly insidious and watching a high-ranking Civil Servant squirm gave one a sort of sadistic sense of satisfaction.

If the manager of the local authority you mention is the one facing a disciplinary, as my relative has witnessed time and time again, the higher they are, the more they get away with it.

For your information also, knowing people who work within the NHS, one at Director level, there are petty bullies who will make something out or nothing or something fairly trivial and of little or no consequence and blow it out of all proportion. No wonder the NHS is the Number Two employment sector for bullying.

[sairlp]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Oh dear...just needed a little rant
As posted previously, the hearing was postponed from today ( new date 15th March) due to manager being off sick...it comes to light that he was off sick, for one blimmin day, has been back since Tuesday
This has made my husband angry again and I think he almost feels like they are doing this on purpose, as you can imagine (Eloise), I keep trying to keep things calm as the last thing he needs is to feel worked up before meeting. We have to remind ourselves that his job could be at stake, so we've got to be calm and composed. Just feel so frustrated that this seems unnecessarily unfair...

[enquirer]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

No wonder the NHS is the Number Two employment sector for bullying.

I've worked in all sorts of jobs in both the public and private sectors and am pretty well travelled, but will say without hesitation that the most spiteful, morally vacant group of people I've ever come across are NHS managers.

[Guest]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

I keep trying to keep things calm... we've got to be calm and composed. Just feel so frustrated that this seems unnecessarily unfair...

A cool and calm head, and knowing what you want, are, imho (some would say not so humble opinion) all that are needed.

Best wishes.

[Eloise01]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Oh dear...just needed a little rant
As posted previously, the hearing was postponed from today ( new date 15th March) due to manager being off sick...it comes to light that he was off sick, for one blimmin day, has been back since Tuesday
This has made my husband angry again and I think he almost feels like they are doing this on purpose, as you can imagine (Eloise), I keep trying to keep things calm as the last thing he needs is to feel worked up before meeting. We have to remind ourselves that his job could be at stake, so we've got to be calm and composed. Just feel so frustrated that this seems unnecessarily unfair...

Yes I get that. Just keep him calm! I am not being funny here, but I actually get that even a day off sick can screw your diary for weeks. A disciplinary is open ended. It can take ten minutes or ten hours and if you are being fair and honest, you do not know which!

It sucks being on the receiving end, I know. But the absolute worst scenario - and I doubt and pray it won't come to this - it's extra pay. Just hang in there. It can't get worse than your worst fears.

[sairlp]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Just thought I would take this opportunity to update and give thanks...
my OH has just called following his disciplinary hearing, he has been given a written warning, not what he wanted, but as Eloise rightly pointed out he could have been dismissed! So we are just very relieved that the whole episode is finally over...
May I take this opportunity to thank you all for your support, advice and kind words, Eloise your sound and professional advice proved invaluable, without it I think we would have approached this in totally the wrong way, so thank you. To be able to get such altruistic and informed information from someone like yourself on a forum has been amazing...I now have a panache for employmment law and read your responses with great interest. :-)
Again big thanks