Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

[bluebottle]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Thanks Bluebottle
Have just looked at the email from CFD and the response was....verbatim this time
"It is not our policy to do so, in order to protect the contents and the operational methods, as well as details of any third party involvement"
Slightly different to what I remembered and had put in previous post
does this sound like a more feasible reason from them?
Thanks

Utter crap from the NHS Bullying Department. They still have to comply with the provisions of PACE 1984 and the Disclosure Requirements of the Criminal Procedures Rules 2011 (as amended) which, from what you have said, they have not complied with.

Speak to a solicitor about this. I suspect he or she will recommend obtaining a court order to force the facts out of the NHS CFD and NHS Trust involved. Expect them to panic and try anything they can to avoid having to disclose, but they should have been upfront and compliant with the law from the outset, not behave like school playground bullies.

[enquirer]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

I have in worked in all sorts of jobs and places, including the NHS, but I have to say that of all, the most vicious group of people I have ever come across are NHS managers.

Hit them hard ... very hard.

[enquirer]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

The delightful NHS Trust has decided, on reading Counter Fraud Dept report, on disciplining my husband for Fraud.

Why were they given this?

They said that the CFD didn't take it down prosecution route due to small amount of money ...

How do they know this to be so?

...but in the Trusts view my husband was "dishonest beyond reasonable doubt" and had been employed by another company whilst off sick from Trust.

Put them to proof.

... back in July,prior to his return to work, Nigel was visiting his Dept as part of his return to work. A colleague approached him and told him that she thought he should know, that a manager had said to her and some others "that (hubby's name) has apparently been working, doing DIY and other house projects while off sick, we're going to investigate".

Major breach of confidentiality.

Due to this being taken further my husband had again contacted the colleagues that heard this info and they have now agreed to put it all in writing.

Act quickly to ensure that they do. Management will go after them if they realise what you are up to.

We met with 2 union reps on 27th and they didn't appear to have much of a clue ...

UNISON presumably? For something nasty like this, you need a full time union official, rather than a workplace rep.

... they said that the Trust did have enough to dismiss him if they wanted to ...

They can dismiss on suspicion. However, they are themselves guilty of all sorts of improprieties, so you have plenty of sticks to beat them with.

[Celestine]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

I just checked back to your first post to check that your husband was off with depression/anxiety. Due to this, he has certain protections under The Disability Discrimination Act.

His managers have acted in a manner very likely to harm his health and indeed it has done so because he is off sick.

This is a vindictive case. As your husband had depression, I would argue that it was a positive benefit for him to be out and about driving you around. Not earning money himself but still being able to feel useful and valued; which is a vital part of recovery.

What punishment are they suggesting for this 'proven act of dishonesty'.

[bluebottle]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

I have in worked in all sorts of jobs and places, including the NHS, but I have to say that of all, the most vicious group of people I have ever come across are NHS managers.

Hit them hard ... very hard.

And most of them have never worked in the NHS before they came to work for the NHS. They bring the worst abuses and excesses of the private sector with them. My local Hospital NHS Trust did the best thing by sacking a load of managers who joined from the private sector, to howls of protest and threats of legal action, which came to nothing. It saved the Trust £7 million a year in the process and I believe they are now investigating deals these managers struck and are finding corruption, fraud and unnecessary waste of taxpayers' money. The sooner the private sector is stopped from carrying out and interfering in public sector functions, the better.

[bluebottle]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Why were they given this?


How do they know this to be so?


Put them to proof.


Major breach of confidentiality.


Act quickly to ensure that they do. Management will go after them if they realise what you are up to.


UNISON presumably? For something nasty like this, you need a full time union official, rather than a workplace rep.


They can dismiss on suspicion. However, they are themselves guilty of all sorts of improprieties, so you have plenty of sticks to beat them with.

If these muppets have got it wrong - very likely - or have cooked-up a story - just as likely - get ready to give them the legal hiding of the century, along with Jeremy Hunt. Let's see how keen he will be to praise NHS managers after he has to explain a substantial legal award for this sort of behaviour to the media or Parliament. Not keen at all, I would suspect.

[bluebottle]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

I just checked back to your first post to check that your husband was off with depression/anxiety. Due to this, he has certain protections under The Disability Discrimination Act.

His managers have acted in a manner very likely to harm his health and indeed it has done so because he is off sick.

This is a vindictive case. As your husband had depression, I would argue that it was a positive benefit for him to be out and about driving you around. Not earning money himself but still being able to feel useful and valued; which is a vital part of recovery.

What punishment are they suggesting for this 'proven act of dishonesty'.

Totally agree, Cel. I still think the OP's OH should seek a court order forcing the muppets to reveal their alleged "evidence".

[sairlp]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Thanks, BB, enquirer, and Celestine.....some more to think about, hadn't even considered the DDA, thanks! Can't believe he pays good money into a Union, and we're having to do all the work, with kind help from people on this forum. We really do feel overwhelmed by this all, is really getting us down, I worry so much for my husbands mental health
Enquirer, re NHS managers, it is my fear that they are a ruthless bunch, thankfully I no longer work in NHS but listening to my husband and our friends chat makes me shudder!
The CFD sent their report to HR, they told us they were going to do this
How do they know about CFD not taking it further due to small amount of money? That is exactly our point, how the hell do they know? I imagine it's on report but since we aren't allowed to see it who knows?!?!
Yes, UNISON, how did you guess lol...we asked them for the full time rep as apparently he's s**t hot, but we were told by these two reps that this would not be possible, on asking why, we were told he's far too busy!

Even more concerned now, a very good friend of ours has a mate who works in a different NHS Trust in HR, he asked for some advice on our behalf, just got off phone...advice being, go into the Disciplinary, hands up, very apologetic, say he knows he acted stupidly, but was depressed at time, bad decision, very remorseful blah blah! He said there was a chance of dismissal as ultimately my husband had done something wrong, by signing the damned paperwork, and would almost def get formal warning..his advice was very strongly, don't go in fighting !!! FFS really don't know what to think, we want to fight as he's done nothing wrong!!!! Also regards the very unprofessional manager, his advice would be to jot mention it:-/. Oh well, was very interesting getting an opinion from the other side

Thanks again for all your kindness and time

[bluebottle]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

What you have to remember with HR is that they live 99.9% of the time in La-La Land. I have often heard Employment Law and HR referred to as the "La-La World". For some reason, parts of it appear to go against natural justice and those who work in HR don't appear to have a clue that other areas of the law often come into the equation and have to be taken into consideration alongside Employment Law. The biggest problem with HR is that they all too often overlook, or have insufficient or no knowledge or understanding whatsoever of other areas of the law and it is this which leads to employers being hauled in front of Employment Tribunals and being severely criticised and incurring orders for substantial damages and costs. In the Michalak case, an NHS Trust was ordered to pay £4.1 million in damages to Michalak, a doctor, for sex and racial discrimination - She is Polish - and rendering her unfit to ever work again, through repeated bullying. Two of the Trust managers who were involved were ordered to pay £20,000 and £30,000, respectively, out of their own pockets for their part in the bullying. The taxpayer, as always, picked up the tab for the rest.

As previously advised, seriously consider getting a court order to force the bullies to produce their alleged "evidence". You also have the Court of Appeal ruling in the case of Majrowski -v- Guys & St Thomas's NHS Trust [2005] you can use against the bullies. Incidentally, this ruling means that an employer is vicariously-liable for harassment/bullying of an employee by other employees.

[enquirer]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

... just got off phone ... advice being, go into the Disciplinary, hands up [...] ..his advice was very strongly, don't go in fighting!

NHS management tried to railroad me out the door. They tried every dirty trick they could think of, and lied outrageously thoughout. I went on the offensive, and then when they were reeling, offered to cut a deal. I left, but it cost them.

Afterwards, the union rep who had accompanied me throughout (I did all the work, he was basically just a witness), said that he had never, ever, seen anyone tear into managers like it.

Pain is the only language these people understand.

[bluebottle]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

No doubt ex-private sector managers? What seems to scare these incompetent cretins is when they are confronted by people who know the law and know how to use it to their advantage. Like you did in your case, it sends them reeling because they, basically, lie and don't know how to cope with those who confront them with fact. Would I have liked to have been a fly on the wall when you were ripping those managers apart.

[Eloise01]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Oh dear. I am about to make a whole load of enemies here. Including a couple of people I was kind of hoping would become friends! In mitigation, the OP asked me to look at the thread! It predates my arrival.

Celestine and others - the DDA was repealed two years ago! Under either the DDA or the Equality Act 2010 (as we now refer to it )it is not entirely clear that the OP's OH qualifies under either. Three periods of anxiety in ten years (anxiety is not deemed serious) wouldn't - three periods of depression in ten years is borderline pressing on not qualifying. All of which is probably moot because even if disability is evidenced, that is not a defence for misconduct.

Amd much as it is fulfilling and entertaining to call HR names ( and seriously guys, was that the best you could come up with?) I am afraid that in terms of employment law this comes down to some very uncomfortable but clear facts. The OP's OH was signed off sick from work, and the employer has evidence that they undertook work whilst signed off sick. It is entirely irrelevant how they got that evidence - the fact is that they have it. I am sorry but with the best will in the world, there is some very bad advice here on this thread. He was signed off sick and unfit for work and was being paid as such by the NHS, and still under contract. He has no permission from his GP to perform alternative work and did not inform his employers that he was undertaking alternative work during his period of sickness. He carried out work and recieved payment for that work - the amount, £100 or two and sixpence, is not relevant. It was work, it was remunerated... he was signed off from work as sick, there were no exceptions made to this...

So contrary to other assertions what he did was wrong, it was fraud, and all that remains now is whether this situation can be recovered from, accepting that is the case.

So, having probably ****ed of all of my nearly new friends - where are we? The OP's last update was nearly a month ago, and at that time I think the union was actually being optiimistic. possibly overly so, albeit they know the employer well and I don't. The employer appears to have every bit of grounds to dimiss for gross misconduct, and previous good behaviour may be taken into account but I personally wouldn't bet on it. It's dead easy to blame the union for not "getting him off" - the fact is that a team of barristers couldn't get him off. On the basis of the OP's version of events, if this went to tribunal, he will 110% certainly lose.

What I now need to know is what, if anything, has happened since early January? In as much detail as possible. The more detail the better - but please firmly understand, I can't "get him off" and this is a loser (based on all of this on the thread) of a case in law. I can't promise anything, except to do the best I can to help. And it may be way beyond help. I fully appreciate he wasn't intending to do wrong, and he didn't know he did wrong - but he did and the law doesn't care what he intended or knew. I will do the best I can to advise - but I must be honest and say that I would be astonishingly delighted if it worked the miracle you are obviously hoping for. I fear it won't, but I'm game to try if you are.

[sairlp]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Thanks for that honest reply, they confirm our fears really. Although seems unfair and unjust, to the employers the rest is just details, as you point out they have evidence that a cheque was made out to my husband and that is all they need. Although, I suppose it won't make any difference but on original paperwork my husband had put me down as all contact details, phone, email etc, and had put to make cheque out to Mrs S & Mr N P ********n.
As an update, he has put his case together and managers and HR are in receipt of this, it's just an honest and accurate account of what happened. As it happens, just recieved a letter yesterday, with a new date, unfortunately it's not until 21 this month, dragging on a bit, just want it over with.
We never managed to get report, any records or documentation etc, despite trying...do you think is still worth chasing if things dont turn out well, or will this become irrelevant?
Anyhow, thanks again all

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Elouise please don't worry about losing friends, here the advice to our posters is the most important thing, and if mistakes are made we need to know

i know that all those I am privileged to call friends will be only too glad to commit this info to memory to help future posters, and not take offence.

[wales01man]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Eloise WOW
When you read advice from someone in the know it really brings home the facts us lay people only view the situation with blinkers you lokk at the whole picture ,I cannot condone the OPS Actions as their is payment to them it must be seen in law as earned income which was for doing work outside their main employment while being paid as the say sick pay,as harsh as the employers actions may seem if the employee is paid out of public funds ,i take it their employer is the NHS which is paid by the rest of us it in its own way can be fraud like benefit fraud,my wife was subject to enquiries by the DWP because of a £108 ANUITY PAYMENT TO ME THAT SHE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT their letters were threatning action and prosecution if she had made a fraudelent claim is this case any different,
I dont condemn the OP they may have made a mistake but to accuse others of a vendetta for reporting them and trying to find out who is surely a sign of guilt,we cannot condemn tax avoiders and benefit cheats and then feel sorry for those who do the same thing as this OP may have done what if all the NHS employess did the same.
Sorry it so blunt but im not as good as Eloise with words