Application for better Particulars on the respondents ET3

[Benny8902]

Being accepted means that it has arrived at the ET it may not have reviewed by a Judge yet, it depends on availability.

Sorry I keep forgetting you are in Scotland, the periodic reminder from you is helpful when I do not refer across to the differences in the Scottish Tribunals.

I have had a review of the new Presidential Guidance and it does say that if a party wants to use witness statements they should make an application to the tribunal, also copy the respondent, as early in the proceedings as possible, explaining why they consider that it would be in the interests of justice to grant the order.

How far away is the next hearing and what type of hearing is it. You may need to consider making the application prior to this.

So the deadline I provided for Further and Better Particulars, originally 7 days extended by 7 days has now passed.

So I would send a request to the Tribunal now?

Also can I keep my questions in where I asked the respondent the following;

"Does the respondent accept my clarifications on my claims with the Judge on date without objection?"


Once again thank you for all. Great help.

[ULA]

Yes you will need to make an application to the Tribunal ensuring that you copy in the respondent.

Not sure what you mean by this question ""Does the respondent accept my clarifications on my claims with the Judge on date without objection?" If it is in relation to your post #43 and the application you submitted, presumably to the Tribunal, they you have to wait for them to determine this you cannot get the respondent to agree without a determination from the Judge.

[Benny8902]

Yes you will need to make an application to the Tribunal ensuring that you copy in the respondent.

Not sure what you mean by this question ""Does the respondent accept my clarifications on my claims with the Judge on date without objection?" If it is in relation to your post #43 and the application you submitted, presumably to the Tribunal, they you have to wait for them to determine this you cannot get the respondent to agree without a determination from the Judge.

Yes that was in relation to post #43 as those where some questions I posed to the respondent as I received an amended further ET3 from them. But they've not bothered to respond to the request I sent to them privately for FBPs


I will send the tribunal and copy the respondent in as well asking for an order.


I did notice they haven't bothered to comply with a Case Management Order either - So I assume that I would make an "Unless order" so they comply with the Judges previous directed case management order in which they haven't complied with?

[Benny8902]

ULA
Hi,

I have now received the FBPs as requested. The responses received don't really provide the answers they are more evasive and make general statements such as "This is evidence for final hearing", or "This doesn't form the pleadings so we don't see point in this"

Some questions are not nearly about the pleadings, they are about allegations they've made. What should my next step be to get better answers which directly answer the questions in a non-evasive way?

Also, for the orders I submitted they objected to them. Refuse the use of witness statements basically saying the assumption is evidence in chief - which to be fair is wrong. Witness statements can be ordered if interest of Justice. I assume this will be something I need to deal with the Judge?

[ULA]

Not seeing the questions you have asked or the response this is not something I can comment on.

If the respondent has objected to your application for the use of witness statements then it will now be down to the Judge to make a decision based on your respective submissions.

[Benny8902]

Not seeing the questions you have asked or the response this is not something I can comment on.

If the respondent has objected to your application for the use of witness statements then it will now be down to the Judge to make a decision based on your respective submissions.

I have sent a few of the questions I asked and the responses in direct message.

More than welcome to provide any guidance in the thread just would rather not post them in public for various reasons.


Thank you

[Benny8902]

Hi ULA

Had my PH today. The order for witness statements was denied. They made the argument along with the Judge agreeing "that no reason to depart from the normal", I did expand and explain the following:

It would be less intimidating for me, being in court is very intimidating to anyone, especially those unrepresented. I appreciate I could be asked questions by the respondent or the tribunal itself, but that would be much easier than having to present every fact over a number of days. It Would put me on an even footing as the respondent allowing me to present my evidence effectively. That would be achieved by allowing me to prepare my evidence in advance of the hearing. It would also shorten the hearing time as well

The judge did not agree with the "shorten hearing" time, she seemed to more swing towards the R rather than why I would want them. Seems like a massive error on her part. As she could have elicited and based on what I said above she should have asked more questions. She did note that I don't have an issue putting what's relevant in a witness statement but others might, but that doesnt affect me, they are represented as the R. So really why deny them?


The judge said basically they could illicit the information on the day. Which is fair enough, but that's not the point the point was it makes everything more fair by the above reasons. It makes me question why the R doesn't want them? So they are not locked into a narrative? Seems that way so they can maintain flexibility, which is wrong.


So, how would I go about submitting an appeal? What content would I provide as part of that appeal (I know I need to submit the form and the written reasons)? I have read the Gov website on appeal but it doesn't really explain how I should frame something like this.

TLDR: The judge seemed fully biased from the get go, and did really care about my argument. She seemed more to agree with R and not even consider what I said or probe for further information on the points I raised.

[ULA]

To submit an appeal you will need to do it in accordance with the following process which is what you are referring to in your post that you have researched.

https://www.judiciary.uk/courts-and-tribunals/tribunals/employment-tribunal/employment-tribunal-scotland/after-the-hearing

I think it is the same in Scottish Tribunals as for England and Wales in that you can only appeal on a point of law therefore you must identify flaws in the legal reasoning of the decision of the Judge in not allowing witness statements.

In order to assist with this you may get some assistance from this document:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...Statements.pdf

The section "Relevant factors when considering whether witness statements should be ordered" point 8 and some of point 9 may help you with this.

[Benny8902]

To submit an appeal you will need to do it in accordance with the following process which is what you are referring to in your post that you have researched.

https://www.judiciary.uk/courts-and-tribunals/tribunals/employment-tribunal/employment-tribunal-scotland/after-the-hearing

I think it is the same in Scottish Tribunals as for England and Wales in that you can only appeal on a point of law therefore you must identify flaws in the legal reasoning of the decision of the Judge in not allowing witness statements.

In order to assist with this you may get some assistance from this document:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...Statements.pdf

The section "Relevant factors when considering whether witness statements should be ordered" point 8 and some of point 9 may help you with this.

thank you. That was the document I tried referring points to the judge.

Though instantly her comment was when we came to deal with the application she said "I'm inclined to agree with the Respondent" - then she asked R their position then came to me. Seemed very unfair to me. She didn't even dig into why based on my answers.

[Benny8902]

Hey

Do I need to include the respondent in my application when asking for written reasons?

The PH note as it was not a public hearing (no restrictions) will include full details?

Can I also apply for a transcript so that I can get the relevant parts which I need to fully support my arguement?

[ULA]

All correspondence to the Tribunal needs to be copied into the respondent.

You can apply for a transcript. In the link below you will find how you can do this on page 4 under the section Transcripts from paragraph 17-26.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...tion-final.pdf

[Benny8902]

All correspondence to the Tribunal needs to be copied into the respondent.

You can apply for a transcript. In the link below you will find how you can do this on page 4 under the section Transcripts from paragraph 17-26.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...tion-final.pdf

Thank you. I did receive the PH Note but that wasn't even an accurate reflection of my arguments. So I assume when I write out the reason for appeal I would need to include sufficient detail? What would something like this look like?

[ULA]

I believe that as you are making an appeal to a Scottish tribunal decision, you will need to follow Chapter 41 of the Appeals under Statute of the Rules of the Court of Session 1994. Which I have linked to below:

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/d...sn=dccce4bd_20

[Benny8902]

Thanks.

Question around SAR. In the response it was noted as the following

"We also hold information regarding you in relation to communications with our solicitors. This is subject to legal professional privilege and is therefore not being disclosed."

is their anyway I can get them to be specific to what these documents are from either management HR or anything along those lines?

My request was very detailed, however they have not listed under any of the annex specifically where the above might be under legal privilege. The only one I could reasonably believe is where I asked for the following

"This includes, but is not limited to, any materials created, obtained, or associated with [Investigator Name] during this period, ensuring a comprehensive inclusion of any HR case notes and related documentation."

Nothing else stands out as me asking for any documentation between solicitor and lawyer.

Have I anyway to challenge this? Can I go back to the data protection officer and say "You state that you hold information in relation to me with your solicitors. Can you point specific to which point within my SAR this corresponds to? As I have not ask for any documentation throughout my request which would be covered by legal privilege."

[Benny8902]

Request for written reasons was refused with this specific wording

On direction of Employment Judge M X, I am writing to acknowledge the Claimants correspondence dated 24 April 2024.

Employment Judge X has requested that I confirm that the Tribunal only issues written reasons to parties upon request where the Employment Tribunal has issued a Judgment to parties, and not in circumstances where the Tribunal has issued a Preliminary Hearing Note and Orders.

The Employment Judge has requested that I confirm that if the Claimant has any questions relating to the Preliminary Hearing Note or points which require clarified, then he can set those out in writing, and they will be referred to Employment Judge X

to me when it comes to Open Justice and a substantive issue such as witness statements or my other application i submitted. So it should be allowed written reasons. This seems crazy to me.

Especially when my 2 applications I made for that hearing fall within the scope of providing written reasons

I found this which seems to fall within her denying me access to what I need

Rule 62 in Schedule 1 of the Employment Tribunals (Constitution and Rules of Procedure) Regulations 2013/1237 ("the ET Rules") states (my emphasis):
62.-Reasons
(1) The Tribunal shall give reasons for its decision on any disputed issue, whether substantive or
procedural (including any decision on an application for reconsideration or for orders for costs,
preparation time or wasted costs).
(2) In the case of a decision given in writing the reasons shall also be given in writing. In the case of a
decision announced at a hearing the reasons nay be given orally at the hearing or reserved to be giver
in writing later (which may, but need
e as part of the written record of the decision). Written
reasons shall be signed by the Emplo Judge.
(3) Where reasons have been aiven
Employment Judge shall announce that written reasons
will not be provided unless they _are asked for by any party at the hearing itself or by a writen request
presented by any pparty within 14 days of the sending of the written record of the decision. The written
record of the decision shall repeat that information. If no such request is received, the Tribunal shall
provide wiitten reasons only ii requested to do so by the tmplovment Appeal I nbunal or a coult
(4) The reasons given for any decision shall be proportionate to the significance of the issue and for
decisions other than judgments may be very short
(5) In the case of a judgment the reasons shall: identify the issues which the Tribunal has determined,
state the findings of fact made in relation to those issues, concisely identify the relevant law, and stat
how that law has been applied to those findings in order to decide the issues. Where the judgment
ncludes a financial award the reasons shall identify, by means of a table or otherwise, how the amoun
to be paid has been calculated.
2.
Regulation 14(1) of the Tribunal Regulations 2013 states that the Lord
Chancellor shall maintain a register containing a copy of all judgments and
written reasons issued by an employment tribunal which are required to be
entered in the Register under Schedules 1 to 3. Subject to certain limited
exceptions, all judgments and written reasons since February 2017 are
entered in an online database, which can be accessed and searched at
www.g0v.uk/em ployment-tribunal-decisions.
3.
The Tribunal does not have the power to order that a judgment or reasons not
be entered in the Register (see Q Ltd v L 2020 ICR 420, CA).

Or am I wrong?