Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

[ODC]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Did they record the interview or take a written statement

[beagleman]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Written statement with someone writing down the whole conversation.

[Eloise01]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Hi

A very interesting thread, I have had some experience with RLP. I am a little confused by the continual references to the theft act and CPS, have these cases been brought in the criminal court, I was under the impression that they were usually a small claims track civil mater ?

Andy

The Theft Act does not only apply in relation to criminal prosecutions by the Police and/or CPS. But you are correct that at this time no mention has been made of a criminal prosecution, so neither the Police nor the CPS are involved, as far as we know.

[Guest]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

The Theft Act does not only apply in relation to criminal prosecutions by the Police and/or CPS. But you are correct that at this time no mention has been made of a criminal prosecution, so neither the Police nor the CPS are involved, as far as we know.

Hi Eloise

Now that is something I did not know, I always thought the civil version of theft was the tort of conversion/interference with goods.

The tests for criminal and civil wrongs are quite different as I am sure you know, the theft act straddles the two, interesting.

this is from the first page of the act.

An Act to revise the law of England and Wales as to theft and similar or associated offences, and in connection therewith to make provision as to criminal proceedings by one party to a marriage against the other, and to make certain amendments extending beyond England and Wales in the Post Office Act 1953 and other enactments; and for other purposes connected therewith

http://mixidj.delta-search.com/?q=th...21136&tsp=4921

Which only serves to confuse me further.

Andy

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Andy,

There is something called the Civil Evidence Act which Eloise can explain far better than I could. RLP try to rubbish what we say on this site about their fatuous claims and I nearly always quote the Ghosh Test, which they claim doesn't apply. Er, if you are alleging someone has stolen something you have to prove they have acted dishonestly and intend to permanently deprive the lawful owner of the property you are alleged to be stealing. The Ghosh Test relates to dishonesty. It has two parts and if only one part can be proven, the case fails. Dishonesty is an essential "point to prove" where Theft is concerned.

The trouble with a lot of large businesses is that they seek legal advice from legal professionals specialising in Commercial Law who give out advice that, really and truly, they should not be giving out as, more often than not, they are not familiar with the complexities of Criminal Law and the Criminal Justice system. This often results in businesses finding out the hard way, they would have been better seeking advice from a legal professional familiar with the applicable area of the law.

[wales01man]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Does anyone know how many cases CRS have taken to court and won,this may help the OP decide what action to take if he wants to play the odds,im betting the company view every letter sent out as a gamble

[Guest]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

HI Bluebottle

Thanks for the reply, the advice used to be just to ignore these threats from what I remember, as they cannot prove any specific damage, and estimated damages are not permissible in a civil action for an action upon tort. I am sure you on here have much more recent information so I will not seek to advise the OP.

Interesting what you say about the GHOSH test, I was aware of it but was under the impression it only applied to a criminal liability test, well live and learn.



Regards
Andy

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

HI Bluebottle

Thanks for the reply, the advice used to be just to ignore these threats from what I remember, as they cannot prove any specific damage, and estimated damages are not permissible in a civil action for an action upon tort. I am sure you on here have much more recent information so I will not seek to advise the OP.

Interesting what you say about the GHOSH test, I was aware of it but was under the impression it only applied to a criminal liability test, well live and learn.



Regards
Andy

As previously stated, in order to prove a case where you allege someone has stolen or attempted to steal from you, you have to prove dishonest intent on the part of that person. If you cannot, there is no case to answer. CR operators, all too often, allege dishonesty and unless both parts of the Ghosh Test can be satisfied, their fatuous claims are just that, fatuous, and totally without merit. Retailers and CR operators would do well to learn that they need to get their own houses in order first before accusing others of dishonesty. And there is an urgent need to crack down on ill-trained, ill-disciplined and unregulated idiots like those the OP has described.

[Guest]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

As previously stated, in order to prove a case where you allege someone has stolen or attempted to steal from you, you have to prove dishonest intent on the part of that person. If you cannot, there is no case to answer. CR operators, all too often, allege dishonesty and unless both parts of the Ghosh Test can be satisfied, their fatuous claims are just that, fatuous, and totally without merit. Retailers and CR operators would do well to learn that they need to get their own houses in order first before accusing others of dishonesty. And there is an urgent need to crack down on ill-trained, ill-disciplined and unregulated idiots like those the OP has described.

Hi Bluebottle

Thanks for that, I guess have completely misunderstood the principles of civil litigation, i was under the impression that the tort in question was evidenced simply by the wrongful possession of property and that motivation had nothing to do with it, and also that the lawful remedy was the liquidated damages that resulted from that action.

Just goes to show that you cannot believe everything you read.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/32

Regards
Andy

[beagleman]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

To summarise - ignore this letter?

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Hi Bluebottle

Thanks for that, I guess have completely misunderstood the principles of civil litigation, i was under the impression that the tort in question was evidenced simply by the wrongful possession of property and that motivation had nothing to do with it, and also that the lawful remedy was the liquidated damages that resulted from that action.

Just goes to show that you cannot believe everything you read.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/32


Regards
Andy

Hi Andy,

Having just read through the legislation you have kindly provided a link to, I can see elements of the Theft Act, Criminal Damage Act and a number of other pieces of Criminal legislation written in a more Plain English form, not the legalese form a lot of Criminal Law is written. Looking at the legislation, it is pretty clear that CR operators claims are nothing more than thinly-disguised attempts to mislead people into believing that the retailer has a legitimate claim. I would go as far as to say such attempts may well amount to attempts to defraud.

Having seen the legislation, it is pretty clear to me that the Ghosh Test is relevant and should be applied where people are alleged to have committed the offence of Theft (Shoplifting) or any other offence of alleged criminal dishonesty, as it is the Ghosh Test that determines dishonesty. If dishonesty cannot be established, then the retailer and CR operator should back off, not continue to harass, bully and coerce.

My gut-feeling is that CR operators need to exercise extreme care where their fatuous claims are concerned as it is only going to be a matter or time before their practices turn round and bite them on the bum hard, along with their retailer clients.

[Guest]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Hi Andy,

Having just read through the legislation you have kindly provided a link to, I can see elements of the Theft Act, Criminal Damage Act and a number of other pieces of Criminal legislation written in a more Plain English form, not the legalese form a lot of Criminal Law is written. Looking at the legislation, it is pretty clear that CR operators claims are nothing more than thinly-disguised attempts to mislead people into believing that the retailer has a legitimate claim. I would go as far as to say such attempts may well amount to attempts to defraud.

Having seen the legislation, it is pretty clear to me that the Ghosh Test is relevant and should be applied where people are alleged to have committed the offence of Theft (Shoplifting) or any other offence of alleged criminal dishonesty, as it is the Ghosh Test that determines dishonesty. If dishonesty cannot be established, then the retailer and CR operator should back off, not continue to harass, bully and coerce.

My gut-feeling is that CR operators need to exercise extreme care where their fatuous claims are concerned as it is only going to be a matter or time before their practices turn round and bite them on the bum hard, along with their retailer clients.

Hi Bluebottle

Interesting, where would it be applied, in the court room or via the security supermarket personnel, and if they did not apply it could you use this a defense ?

It is just that from what i remember of my common law, conversion which is part of "trover" is none blame, and founded on wrongful possession only.

Because of course civil law is not concerned with punishment(or dishonesty).

anyway lets not clog the OPs thread, interesting though this discussion is


Andy

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

It is the Law Commission who threw a spanner in works for CR operators by publicly stating that their fatuous clams have no basis in law whatsoever. The trouble with a lot of alleged shoplifting claims is the behaviour of retail security goons who, all too often, are poorly-trained, ill-disciplined and quite often, spout absolute nonsense.

TBH, CRS, in my view, are clutching at straws where conversion is concerned in the OP's case. The onus is on them to prove their case. If the OP has not already done so, they should put CRS and Game on strict proof and use Civil Procedures Rules to force them to produce what evidence they have, if any, to quantify and substantiate their claims. My gut-feeling is that a court would, in all probability, throw CRS/Game's case out. However, having said that, stranger things have happened.

[beagleman]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Come on then guys, help me out, do I reply or ignore?

[charitynjw]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't advise one way or the other.

It is, & remains, your call.