Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

[beagleman]

Hi, this one is a bit more complex to other posts on here so hoping for some rock solid help on it.

I work in retail, in my line of work we get a lot of things from manufacturers, publishers etc to give away with products upon their release as bonuses, when these particular products are a couple of weeks old, any 'bonus' merchandise is generally binned.

I was taking this 'bonus' merchandise (with a monetary value of £0 at this point, as it was off in the bin) and flogging it on a well known auction site.

I know that this is in my contract, that any promotional items should be for individual use only.

Anyway - I got caught, loss prevention came into the store I work in on one of my shifts, basically sat me down and went through my eBay history - I admitted truthfully to whether I took it from work or not - they basically then totted up the total value in front of me (Came to something like £268.50 or something, which is wrong, as that is a gross value without eBay, Paypal fees etc to anyone who is familiar with it) and basically said I would be contacted by CRS to recover this cost, and any other security costs etc due to the investigation - that I knew nothing about, obviously.

Anyway, I got Suspended WITH Pay until further notice, unable to enter the store etc - normal stuff.

The following day I handed in my notice - which is 14 days - I then went away 4 days later for 2 weeks unable to check my mail etc.

Anyway, I got back, almost 3 weeks after the interview - I had one letter, basically from the company I worked for saying they will be taking legal action against me, that I was suspended - basically, everything the guy already told me.

Now, almost 4 weeks on - I am persued by CRS - Claiming I owe £581.86 - to cover the cost of 'loss' and compensate the client for investigation, security and administration due to my actions.

Hopefully I have covered everything, and any help would be great - I am happy to provide any extra information or a scan of the letter with some parts excluded.

Thanks

[charitynjw]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Hi beagleman & welcome to Legal Beagles.

[Eloise01]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

The circumstances of how you happened to be in this situation are not relevant in terms of civil recovery - so the fact that this arises from your employment is irrelevant. The basic legal premise of civil recovery is that a claim is made for a quantifiable and proveable loss by an individual or organisation. They can send any "requests" they want - but whether they can evidence those requests and convince a court is an entirely different matter. But that is not to say that they can't either. So it may be a bluff - I believe they often are, although others around here are better at the detail of this process than I (employment law being my specialism), but I would not rely on my opinion alone!

[charitynjw]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Some info here

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

If the merchandise has a value of £0.00 to your employers and they had taken a decision to dispose of the items, that is, they had relinquished rights of ownership, then, IMHO, they have no quantifiable case for loss or for any alleged disruption to their business. If anything, they have been responsible for any expense they have incurred due to them acting in a disproportionate manner. In short, they are responsible for any losses they allege they have incurred.

As for the merchandise, I doubt very much whether a court would allow them to claim if they had disposed of them and, in doing so, relinquished rights of ownership in the merchandise.

My background is in Criminal Law. If you want my honest opinion, from what you have said, it is evident that your employers and CRS are, to put a finer point on it, "trying it on". Unless they can prove actual and quantifiable loss and that their actions were proportionate and justifiable, in the circumstances, a court is likely to take a very dim view of any attempt to pursue a claim.

[beagleman]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Cheers guys, any ideas how I should reply to this letter - if at all.

Just to reiterate - the amount they want me to pay back for the 'goods' is what I sold them for - now what the company value them at.

Obviously really gutted about this as I feared for my job, so thought best to quit - and now its just like they really wanna make an example out of me as some sort of deterrent.

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

If your employers had disposed of them, that is, no longer required them and took the decision to ditch them, they have relinquished and abandoned all rights of ownership. There are provisions under the Theft Act 1968 which cover this. It sounds to me that they now realise they have lost out by disposing of the merchandise and are, to put it bluntly, being greedy and vindictive. Personally, I would put your employers and CRS on strict proof of loss, that they have a right in law to claim and that liability can be attached to you for any alleged losses. My gut-feeling is that they will be unable to produce such evidence. Don't be surprised if you get an evasive response, that is, they avoid answering the question and insist you have to pay. The law doesn't work like that.

[beagleman]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Thanks again - so, do I reply with a letter, if so, what do I put? Not really good with this legal jargon. If it helps I am adding scans of both the letter from my employer and CRS. In the original post.

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Thanks again - so, do I reply with a letter, if so, what do I put? Not really good with this legal jargon. If it helps I am adding scans of both the letter from my employer and CRS. In the original post.

That would help and enable us to see if your employers and CRS have any quantifiable case. Remember to remove any personal details before posting the documents.

[Eloise01]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

If your employers had disposed of them, that is, no longer required them and took the decision to ditch them, they have relinquished and abandoned all rights of ownership. There are provisions under the Theft Act 1968 which cover this. It sounds to me that they now realise they have lost out by disposing of the merchandise and are, to put it bluntly, being greedy and vindictive. Personally, I would put your employers and CRS on strict proof of loss, that they have a right in law to claim and that liability can be attached to you for any alleged losses. My gut-feeling is that they will be unable to produce such evidence. Don't be surprised if you get an evasive response, that is, they avoid answering the question and insist you have to pay. The law doesn't work like that.

Whilst I agree with you in theory, I must correct an error in law. Under the Theft Act 1968 items discarded by a property owner in dumpsters located on private property remain the property of the owner until such time as the refuse collectors collect them. It is only in US law that an item disposed of has no value - it is this difference that has allowed successful prosecutions of dumpster divers in the UK. So the fact that a property owner has disposed of the item as being of no value to them does not mean that it is impossible to mount a successful prosecution under the Theft Act. My gut instinct is that this is a bluff, but we should acknowledge that it may not be.

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Whilst I agree with you in theory, I must correct an error in law. Under the Theft Act 1968 items discarded by a property owner in dumpsters located on private property remain the property of the owner until such time as the refuse collectors collect them. It is only in US law that an item disposed of has no value - it is this difference that has allowed successful prosecutions of dumpster divers in the UK. So the fact that a property owner has disposed of the item as being of no value to them does not mean that it is impossible to mount a successful prosecution under the Theft Act. My gut instinct is that this is a bluff, but we should acknowledge that it may not be.

Whilst I bow to your superior knowledge, Eloise, experience and gut-instinct tells me the employer may have difficulty convincing a court that they have a valid claim, if at all. If the refuse container belongs to the employer, possibly, but if they contract a private-sector contractor and the refuse container belongs to that contractor, that is where they may find difficulty convincing a court of the veracity and validity of any claim they may purport to have. I will certainly go with your gut-feeling about the claim being a bluff, in which case the employer and CRS are being very foolish indeed, but, as you quite rightly say, until CRS produce evidence, treat as not being a bluff.

[Eloise01]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Whilst I bow to your superior knowledge, Eloise, experience and gut-instinct tells me the employer may have difficulty convincing a court that they have a valid claim, if at all. If the refuse container belongs to the employer, possibly, but if they contract a private-sector contractor and the refuse container belongs to that contractor, that is where they may find difficulty convincing a court of the veracity and validity of any claim they may purport to have. I will certainly go with your gut-feeling about the claim being a bluff, in which case the employer and CRS are being very foolish indeed, but, as you quite rightly say, until CRS produce evidence, treat as not being a bluff.

I concur it is probably a bluff. But that is our opinion, on which we can agree. But Freegan law is quite interesting - if the dumpster belongs to the refuse company the contents of the dumpster are still retained by the property owner if the dumpster is located on their land until such time as they are collected by the refuse company. Secured or not. And whether access to the dumpster requires trespass or not. That applies whether it is your bin or a companies refuse. If I recall correctly, there was a successful prosecution over four old plastic chairs that someone had thrown out! And I think a fairly recent one over out of date food (which since you cannot sell it, or even give it away, has no value). That latter one is one of those "wonderful" laws - I know a couple who work at a large supermarket and for many years, at the end of their nightshift the supermarket gave them, happily, every scrap of "expired at midnight" food to take to the homeless shelter at the end of their shift. The supermarket was forced by changes in the law to stop doing that and bin the food because they weren't even allowed to give it away!

[Celestine]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

I'm abroad and only on my phone but can someone please direct the OPto the Oxford case where it clearly sets out that the claimant has to demonstrate actual loss. My gut instinct is that the claimant would struggle in this instance and this would be an interesting case if they're going to pursue it.

[Eloise01]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

I'm abroad and only on my phone but can someone please direct the OPto the Oxford case where it clearly sets out that the claimant has to demonstrate actual loss. My gut instinct is that the claimant would struggle in this instance and this would be an interesting case if they're going to pursue it.

I'll happily see if I can find it for you. But I doubt the OP will find it "interesting" if they did :tinysmile_cry_t:

But I think we all generally agree - it's probably a bluff but there is only ever one way of finding out!

[beagleman]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Cheers guys - to clarify what I mean for 'for the bin'

At work any boxes for delivery etc get left out the back before being put out for the people who deal with the rubbish (My former workplace was a shopping centre).

The items I took were still in the workplace, not in a dumpster.