Advice - contract with Rawreth Builders Limited???

[clockworkdog]

Hi

I am after some help. I appreciate that advice is not any guarentee of how a county court will determine the case in light of the full facts.

A friend recommended a builder to us for a big renovation of a house we bought. In this case,he came to see us and I then emailed him in writing what I wanted. He replied back and his quote was on an email and was signed `him Things went back and forth and we agreed the price via email. This was the only written contract we had with him.

Cutting a long story short, we paid him £167,500K (in full). The wet room floor has leaked repeatedly and he made numerous attempts go fix. Eventually, an expert he sent round said it was constructed completely wrong and had to be ripped out. he agreed that this needed to happen, but basically walked away refusing to put right because he did not want to pay. He left our bathroom floor ripped up and the downstairs ceiling ripped out.

Something I didn't know at the time I entered into the contract, was that he operated a limited company called Rawreth Builders Limited. When I proceeded at County Court, I proceeded against Rawreth Builders Limited. Despite saying he intended to defend, he failed to submit a defence within the four weeks. I actually waited 7 weeks and then filed for judgement by default. This was issues and so Rawreth Builders Limited has a County Court Judgement against them. He refuses to pay, and has told the bailiff he has no money and has stopped trading. I know he has not stopped trading. The county bailiff says there is nothing more she can do.

Our problems don't stop there, the 60m2 floor he installed in our kitchen/family room has tiles breaking everywhere. He has used a dot and dab technique using 1/4 amount of adhesive he should have done, and has tiled straight onto the pipework and polystyrene base. This is all incorrect. This is now going to cost a fortune to fix.

My question:

Was my contract with him or his company??

He never told us he was a limited company. He only ever signed emails as himself He never issues a contract between Rawreth Builders Limited and us. He never gave us in invoice showing Rawreth Builders Limited (he never invoiced at all and regularly asked for large amounts in cash). We onlt ever saw the company sign once he started work and put this up outside and turned up with company vans.

In the very first email, he did thank me for allowing his company to quote us. I never noticed that word. But that email was again by him and there was no mention of Rawreth Builders Limited. That is the only mention of the word `company' and certainly no clue this was a limited company.

As a consumer, how will courts view my position? We can prove he has lied about stuff in writing. He never told us this was a limited company - we thought it was him as a sole trader. I want to proceed against him personally as this is the only way I think I am likely to get him to fix what he has caused through corner cutting and putting us through hell. Can I, should I, proceed against him personally??

Thanks for any advice anyone can give.

Andrew

[Ripped-Off]

Re: Advice - contract with Rawreth Builders Limited???

You must have thought that you were in contract with the company, when it seems that you may have been in contract with the individual. Who did you pay the money to; the builder or the individual?

[clockworkdog]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

I thought I was in contract with him. When he asked for money, he would ask for some in cash, say £10K (says he employs lots of people he needs to pay cash to) and £10K by cheque. I think I paid the cheque to his company but at the time we agreed the contract, there was no mention of his limited company. I have all the emails between me and him including the agreement. I'm hoping therefore, that the most important thing is who I entered into contract with??

I am very grateful for the advice.

[charitynjw]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

Did the County Court find in your favour?

& what was the court's verdict?

[Kati]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

Did the County Court find in your favour?

& what was the court's verdict?

....

When I proceeded at County Court, I proceeded against Rawreth Builders Limited. Despite saying he intended to defend, he failed to submit a defence within the four weeks. I actually waited 7 weeks and then filed for judgement by default. This was issues and so Rawreth Builders Limited has a County Court Judgement against them. He refuses to pay, and has told the bailiff he has no money and has stopped trading. I know he has not stopped trading. The county bailiff says there is nothing more she can do.

As a consumer, how will courts view my position? We can prove he has lied about stuff in writing. He never told us this was a limited company - we thought it was him as a sole trader. I want to proceed against him personally as this is the only way I think I am likely to get him to fix what he has caused through corner cutting and putting us through hell. Can I, should I, proceed against him personally??

[charitynjw]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

Thanks [MENTION=49370]Kati[/MENTION],

I just wondered whether the builder was told to pay the money back, & what other conditions may have been imposed.

Also, were costs awarded for builder's unreasonable behavior?

[Ripped-Off]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

Could it be that you were in contract with two parties; the individual and the building company?

You thought were in contract with the individual, but he delegated performance of his contract to the building company. You appear to have given consideration to both parties; at least £10k in cash to the individual who then acted like an agent and found you a builder, albeit his own, and the rest to the builders who also gave consideration by providing the defective work.

Can you provide further details? For example, did you claim £167k and get judgement for that amount? I'd like to think that there is a contract between you and the individual, created by the cash payment and the emails. What confuses me though is how you managed to persuade the court that you were in contract with the building company?

[des8]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

What confuses me though is how you managed to persuade the court that you were in contract with the building company?

Default judgement as no defence submitted ( Post 1)

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

If the services were provided to you via his legal company (ie ltd company by incorporation even if one person) then his legal company is liable. If he were a sole trader then he himself would still be liable as he would not be incorporated as a company. If he were operating without using LTD after his company name, I believe the limited company is liable - he cannot have his cake and eat it! What this means is that an company assets (of the limited company business) including in his home or office can be sold to pay off the debt. If his business has not been liquidated formally, you can apply to have charges (security against his home or businesses) on the properties for the amount owed or what the properties are worth. You can then apply to the court for an order of sale of his business premises. I believe the high courts have more powers with bailiff action, they have enforcement officers which will research his assets and take action. These enforcement officers also have powers to put charges on the aforesaid. If you want to proceed against him personally, it would be against him not in contract but through the tort of negligence. As limited company, he however will be limited as how much you can sue him for.

[Ripped-Off]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

You see this a lot in the building industry; individuals who set up a limited company, make thousands off the back of it, then after a bad deal or a VAT bill, they wind the company up and start again the following week under a new name, sometimes with a different director.

If you chase the company, you could spend hundreds, perhaps thousands, and come back with nothing. You need to chase the individual, that way he cannot hide behind the protection of a limited status. If you succeed he could lose his house in order to pay back the debt. To do this, you need to establish a contractual link, or as Openlaw15 says, prove that he owed you a duty of care and sue him in negligence. Personally, I think proving a breach of contract or a breach of either the Supply of Goods & Services Act 1982 or even the Consumer Rights Act 2015 is preferable to claiming damages in negligence.

But none of this answers your underlying question. What I think you want to know is can you sue the individual even though you have already successfully sued the building company, and if so, how do you go about it?

Update - Having checked Companies House the company is still trading but there is an active proposal to strike off which was lodged on 9th February 2016 and will take effect on 9th April 2016.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

You see this a lot in the building industry; individuals who set up a limited company, make thousands off the back of it, then after a bad deal or a VAT bill, they wind the company up and start again the following week under a new name, sometimes with a different director.

If you chase the company, you could spend hundreds, perhaps thousands, and come back with nothing. You need to chase the individual, that way he cannot hide behind the protection of a limited status. If you succeed he could lose his house in order to pay back the debt. To do this, you need to establish a contractual link, or as Openlaw15 says, prove that he owed you a duty of care and sue him in negligence. Personally, I think proving a breach of contract or a breach of either the Supply of Goods & Services Act 1982 or even the Consumer Rights Act 2015 is preferable to claiming damages in negligence.

But none of this answers your underlying question. What I think you want to know is can you sue the individual even though you have already successfully sued the building company, and if so, how do you go about it?

What I meant was suing in contract is limited but suing for the negligent services provided in tort is vast, ie loss of amenity...damages for every actual loss. You cannot claim for the same thing though in both contract and tort. If the OP applies for charges against the company's/ his home and or business, it means they cannot be sold without paying the OP first, so more than likely guarantees (not guarantee in the legal sense) payments. Commercial lawyers know that registered charges protect their creditor's interests and even withstand bankruptcy as it is secured.

[ostell]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

I believe you can contact Companies House and oppose the strike off as there is an outstanding legal judgement against the company.

[des8]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

Is there any possibility you could post up a copy of your court claim and where filed?
You have used a county court bailiff? what about transferring it to HCEO? (they're bigger B*****S!)

[des8]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

As you have judgement against a creditor, I think it is a bit ACADEMIC to query obtaining judgement against another party for the same matter.
Something about unjust enrichment, especially in view of the amounts involved.
Perhaps Openlaw could comment
Have you received contradictory advice from MSE?

[wales01man]

Re: Advice - contract with individual or Rawreth Builders Limited???

If the Cheques were paid to the LTD company and the guy was handed cash was a receipt given for the Cash?