speeding ticket

[Caspar]

Re: speeding ticket

This isn't about you Caspar and your edited posts do not go unnoticed; it's about helping people not making oneself look good after the fact.

I know it's not about me Amy, no problem. Just for the record, my edits were only to provide information where I quoted what I had already stated in posts 4 and 6 but not word for word the RTA. All others were typos - I haven't been keeping a note to be honest.

Anyway, let's get back to the main issue of helping the OP - even you and I are agreed where they stand now, so there should be no more discussion over suggestions made to them.
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

Pure entertainment. This is why I SOOOOO LUUURVE that ferkin' "Police, Camera, Action" $h1te. Keep it coming, guys !!!!!

I just SO lurve the sheer mindlessness of it all !!!

That's what I SO lurve about it, here !!!

No great ego here - very rarely get into this sort of disagreement actually. You've seen enough of my posts to know that!

[Amy]

Re: speeding ticket

You don't convince any court because unless the speeding was excessive, you won't be anywhere near a court building.

All you are legally required to do, as above, is to try and ascertain who was driving at the time and if you genuinely don't know who was driving, perhaps because a journey was shared or more than one person is insured to drive, then you have shown due diligence and fulfilled your obligation.

You do not refuse to tell them.

They want a cheque for £60 that is all and if you genuinely do not know who was driving and you argue your case (in writing) they will move on to the next wave of 'speeders'.

I didn't say it was a 'slam dunk' nothing with the law ever is, but you do not have to lie about who was driving.

[mystery1]

Re: speeding ticket

You don't convince any court because unless the speeding was excessive, you won't be anywhere near a court building.

All you are legally required to do, as above, is to try and ascertain who was driving at the time and if you genuinely don't know who was driving, perhaps because a journey was shared or more than one person is insured to drive, then you have shown due diligence and fulfilled your obligation.

You do not refuse to tell them.

They want a cheque for £60 that is all and if you genuinely do not know who was driving and you argue your case (in writing) they will move on to the next wave of 'speeders'.

I didn't say it was a 'slam dunk' nothing with the law ever is, but you do not have to lie about who was driving.

It's reasonable diligence not due diligence.

If you fail to name a driver it's pretty much a certainty that they will pursue a failure to furnish charge. s172(4) is a defence to the charge but if the magistrates don't believe you it's 6 points and a hefty fine. Saying that you can't remember won't cut the mustard.

M1

[MEGLOS]

Re: speeding ticket

looking at those legs we'd all get a speeding fine

[Amy]

Re: speeding ticket

It's reasonable diligence not due diligence.

If you fail to name a driver it's pretty much a certainty that they will pursue a failure to furnish charge. s172(4) is a defence to the charge but if the magistrates don't believe you it's 6 points and a hefty fine. Saying that you can't remember won't cut the mustard.

M1

You are not actually listening. I have not once said saying someone 'cannot remember' [who was driving at the time] is in any way, shape or form a good idea.

You may be unable to name the driver and that is not a crime as you are not required to keep a diary of who drives the car on any given day. However, it is a crime to lie and if you name a driver even though you do not know for certain they were driving at the time of the alleged offence, then you are lying and that is a punishable offence.

If you reply to the letters and provide your details and a reasonable explanation as to why you have failed to identify the driver, then the fine cannot be increased. The worst that can happen is that you pay the original fine.

[WendyB]

Re: speeding ticket

So, if you honestly can't identify the driver, and tell them so, would it be down to you as the owner of the car to pay the fine, and have 3 points endorsed in your licence?

I got done by a "frontal" camera, bloody magenta flash brighter than a firework, scared the living daylights out of me, I almost crashed the car, more dangerous than my speeding (36 in a 30) in my opinion. I owned up, paid up, and took the 3 points.

[mystery1]

Re: speeding ticket

So, if you honestly can't identify the driver, and tell them so, would it be down to you as the owner of the car to pay the fine, and have 3 points endorsed in your licence?

I got done by a "frontal" camera, bloody magenta flash brighter than a firework, scared the living daylights out of me, I almost crashed the car, more dangerous than my speeding (36 in a 30) in my opinion. I owned up, paid up, and took the 3 points.

You really shouldn't guess although it is not a crime. Perverting the course of justice has to be a deliberate act. Guessing is not a deliberate act to avoid natural justice. Not sure of the offence Amy has cited as i've never seen that specific one - 'supplying false information'

The penalty for failure to furnish is bigger than a minor speeding offence (36/30). If you can show "reasonable diligence" in attempting to identify the driver, but still fail, then a court should not convict you. There is no set in stone guide to what is reasonable diligence. FtF = 6 points and a large fine whereas speeding = 3 points and £60.

You then have a gamble on your hands. Reasonable diligence and possible winor bad loss or guess and perhaps get a speed awareness course and no points.

If you do not nominate a driver chances are you will go to court.

M1

[Master Yoda]

Re: speeding ticket

I got done by a "frontal" camera, bloody magenta flash brighter than a firework, scared the living daylights out of me.

That's because you're a horse.

Adjust your blinders.

[Gorang]

Re: speeding ticket

If you do not nominate a driver chances are you will go to court.

That is a guarantee,

because if you don't supply the name of the driver the they will put it before a judge to deal with it, and it will be in the court you will have to PROVE

fristly that you were not driving, by some means of proof or witnesses to say you were somewhere else at the time

secondly you will need to prove that you have tried to find out who was driving by either some sort of proof or witnesses
and/or you will need to prove that there was NO WAY in telling who was driving at the time if at all possible

that is the only way a judge will accept that you have used reasonable diligence to try and find out who was driving

It is not impossible to PROVE that you DON'T know or that you CAN'T find out who was driving but it is almost impossible IMHO and from my own experiences with this

[mystery1]

Re: speeding ticket

It isn't that hard really and still does work. It is harder if you are making it up though. Don't confuse harder with effort.

BBC News - Kevin Nolan cleared over Newcastle speeding case

update THE VERDICT......Full Account - FightBack Forums

Not much to say really....

Arrived at court in due time and first thing was tried my luck asking to see a duty solicitor although you are not entitled to see them in a motoring case now!! Said he might be able to have a quick chat if we happen to be outside having a tab! Anyway, time ran out so in we went (parents came for support).

Prosector read out charges. I think he helped me by saying I had sent in the S172 but had put down 3 names as possible drivers and it was the magistrates job to determine if this was satisfactory. The statement from the policeman said he was on duty in full uniform inc high vis jacket at the side of the road!!!!! I was worried the magistrates might not ask why we can't remember seeing the officer.... I'll get to this later.

I then started my defence. I had photcopied and number all pieces of evidence and handed 3 copies to the magistrates for them to look at (This is a great piece of advice I got from a Legal Helpline Solictor through my car insurance). Went through the facts, 3 possible drivers travelling back from London sharing the driving. Stressed the fact that it was my intention to coperate fully with the SCU but I didn't want to lie on a legal document (NIP) and couldn't honestly put down the driver. Showed the magistrated what I had done to try and identify the driver:-

- Request photo. I pointed out that the photo did not help in identifying the driver and said that if the officer was in 'full view' why he didn't target the car from the front and why would he wait for us to pass giving the driver the chance to slow down before targeting from behind. We don't remeber seeing any officer as he was not in 'full view'.

- Look at bank statements
- Speak to other drivers
- Check map

All to no avail. I think they particuly liked the letter I wrote to Shell and Texaco asking for the CCTV footage for the day in question. Of course they replied saying all CCTV footage is destroyed after 28 days

Went through the letter I recieved back from the CPS after I asked them to review the case and what else I could do to find the driver. CPS said the court might like to know why the car was in the area and why the other 2 drivers can't remember where they were that day!!! The prosecutors face was a picture when I pointed out that I had already informed the SCU and CPS that the car was travelling back from a weekend in London and all 3 drivers where in the car!! I got the other drivers to write letters to the CPS explaining this.

Finally I stressed the fact that the SCU, Police and CPS had not once contacted the other 2 possible drivers. No calls, letters, visists nothing. 'Are they actually interested in who was driving' I said. Again prosecutor was not happy! I finally read out subsection 4 of the RTA 'Cannot be found guilty if shown reasonable dillegence etc' Clerk of the court stood up and pointed out that I can only use that as a defence if I am the registered keeper and asked if I was......Errr Yeah.....thats why I am here!

Prosecutor then asked 1 question. As I am the legal owner and keeper did I not feel it was my responsibilty to know who was driving when a law was being broken? I replied that the other 2 drivers where legally allowed to drive and close friend and brother but I couldn't be responsible for thier actions. I added that from now on I will be keeping a note of who drives when and where. This seemed to go down well with the magistrates as they nodded in agreement. Ta da.........End of defence. :?


They went out for about 10 minutes. Although it felt like hours!! Finally came in sat down and said.....'Mr Welsh, we feel that you have shown reasonable dilligence and therefor find you....NOT GUILTY'

After a few seconds to let it settle in I thanked the magistrates and they said I could leave.......as I was getting up I said I would like to put in an application for 'Costs'. I think the prosector had had enough as he reopend the case file with a resounding thud and stared at me!!! He he he

I thought i would have to fill in a form of some sort but the Clerk just asked me how much I want to claim for. I asked for a few seconds to calculate. Didn't know what to do, didn't want to push it so ended up asked for costs to cover my Fuel from Plymouth to Bath....so £60. The mag agreed and out I went!!!

Very happy and £60 up!! Not bad for a days work.....and what a buzz. Might have been different if I had lost.

So. tips I have gained from the day. Be prepared, dress smart, photocopy everyting for the magistrates and number each page, if you can't get a solicitor use the legal helplines on your insurance for advice. Speak loudly and clearly and explain you are nervous. Don't let the prosector or Clerk bully you. Take you time and if you don't understand anything ask and ask again.

Finally a big thanks to all on the forum who have helped esp Firefly. Cheers bud.

I will be staying on the forum to hopefully help out those in the same situation as me......it can be done. Don't give in. Don't fight the system, use the system!!!

Laters




If you GENUINELY can't remember or work it out you'll be fine most of the time. If you are trying it on then you better be a good fibber in court because they will probe and if they think you're full of it you'll lose even if you're not.

M1

[Gorang]

Re: speeding ticket

Nice result

A lot of work for the £60 but well worth it lol

Don't fight the system, use the system!!!

never a turer word said

[mystery1]

Re: speeding ticket

Not me

I am currently 2 years in to a battle for 66mph in a 40mph which i expect to win.

M1

[Gorang]

Re: speeding ticket

LOL sorry M1 your post 25 looked like it was your case

Have edited my last post

[The Debt Star]

Re: speeding ticket

Well done mate re post #25. Inspirational.

[Amy]

Re: speeding ticket

Not me

I am currently 2 years in to a battle for 66mph in a 40mph which i expect to win.

M1

Are you actually being prosecuted for this?