Flight cancellation by airline

[Lynnzer]

First off, it might be useful to read this little lot

Now, that little problem was overcome, albeit somewhat unenthusiastically, something else has cropped up.
We received an email from Expedia today telling us that the airline (Delta) has cancelled the flight. They are not making a direct flight at that time of year now. Manchester to JFK that is.
So, Expedia are now telling us that they can offer an indirect flight at the same price still with Delta, or they can rebook a direct flight with American Airlines at an extra £138 each, 8 people.
When told that an indirect flight wasn't an option and the extra cost for a direct flight with American Airlines wasn't on, they told us that if we cancel we wouldn't get the costs associated with the hotel part of the package refunded.
They seem to be insisting that they are offering a suitable alternative but this just isn't so.
OK guys, get stuck into this. What's the legal position?
A cancellation will incur a refund time of around 12 weeks they tell us which means that we won't even have the cash to re-book with anyone else.
Is chargeback a legal option here, one that won't be knocked back by the card issuer.
As the holiday was arranged through Expedia as a package can they even disseminate the individual costs. They are acting as an agent for the airline and also the hotel so where do they stand in the legal framework.
To say we won't EVER use Expedia again is something of an understatement.

[shamen]

Re: Flight cancellation by airline

That seems to be a bit of a mickey take, but im sure they have it in their 'terms' somewhere that its ok. I hope someone else here has a bit better insight, but just off the top of my head if a holiday is bought as a package then normally there is some kind of protection.

As they are offering you an indirect flight then this may be viewed as a suitable alternative, but im not too sure. What is the alternative they are offering - Manchester to JFK cant have that many alternatives (maybe via amsterdam or via a northeast US airport/Canada airport) ? What is the extra travel time and layover time? If the extra travel time and layover is excessive then it normally is not viewed as a suitable alternative. But thats all down to interpretation.

I found this on the BBC website http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8621779.stm

Package holidays have their own protection. Operators must refund customers for the whole holiday if trips are canceled, meaning they could not get to their destination. In reality, operators tend to give three options to people on package deals. They are: deferring the leaving date of the holiday, transferring to another holiday of the same or similar value, or a refund of the amount paid for the whole holiday.
There is also a potential claim to your credit card provider if you booked using your card.

Not sure if that applies in your case as they are offering an alternative flight for no extra money, albeit one with a bit more inconvenience to you. Definitely speak to your card company though and get their advice.

[Lynnzer]

Re: Flight cancellation by airline

That seems to be a bit of a mickey take, but im sure they have it in their 'terms' somewhere that its ok. I hope someone else here has a bit better insight, but just off the top of my head if a holiday is bought as a package then normally there is some kind of protection.

As they are offering you an indirect flight then this may be viewed as a suitable alternative, but im not too sure. What is the alternative they are offering - Manchester to JFK cant have that many alternatives (maybe via amsterdam or via a northeast US airport/Canada airport) ? What is the extra travel time and layover time? If the extra travel time and layover is excessive then it normally is not viewed as a suitable alternative. But thats all down to interpretation.

I found this on the BBC website http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8621779.stm

Not sure if that applies in your case as they are offering an alternative flight for no extra money, albeit one with a bit more inconvenience to you. Definitely speak to your card company though and get their advice.

Thanks for that Shamen. The way I see it is that Expedia can't rely on any Terms and Conditions anyway since they haven't brought any to our attention. I think that they have to ensure that they are shown, and known, before completion of the booking.
In any event, who is Expedia working for in the whole scenario. They are agents for the airlines/hotels they use but also agents acting on behalf of the consumer. Bit of a conflict the way I see it.
What we did was to give them all our details in order to make the arrangements. We didn't speficy any particular airline but only that the flight should be direct. So Delta was contracted by Expedia not by us. Doesn't this place Expedia in a position to make the booking with the other alternative airline for a direct flight at no extra cost since that was what was specified initially?
In the meantime a call to the bank will be mafe in the morning.

[shamen]

Re: Flight cancellation by airline

They will be able to argue that you agreed to the terms and conditions when you made the booking (as you need to tick the box in order to book), however I know most people dont read those so its a question of 'were they made known enough' but really I wouldn’t like to be the guy arguing that one with big business limited.

If you bought your flights and hotel through expedia in the UK and they were bought together, as a package (Eg, you clicked on the 'Flight+Hotel option), then you are covered by ATOL. AFAIK, ATOL will cover you in the circumstance of a flight cancellation, however they (Expedia) may try to argue that is not appropriate as there is an alternative flight offered for no extra money.

Holidays that include air travel, which you arrange on Expedia.co.uk are ATOL Protected by the Civil Aviation Authority under ATOL number 5788. ATOL protection extends primarily to customers who book and pay in the United Kingdom. For all pre-arranged holidays booked through Expedia.co.uk, Expedia, Inc. acts as an authorised agent. Travel commencing in the Republic of Ireland to destinations outside the Republic of Ireland are protected under license by the Commission for Aviation Regulation in Ireland, Travel Agent Licence No. 0671 – Expiry Date 31 October 2009. For all queries and questions relating to expedia.co.uk licensing and ATOL regulations please email us at travel@support.expedia.co.uk.

Your point is you paid for a direct flight, so that is what you should get. Expedias point is that flight is not available any more and they can only offer you an indirect one without extra costs. The question then becomes are expedia acting in good faith with that stance when a direct flight was booked originally. That is a question I suggest you pose to ATOL.

who is Expedia working for in the whole scenario. They are agents for the airlines/hotels they use but also agents acting on behalf of the consumer. Bit of a conflict the way I see it.

Irrespective of what they claim, they are your agent. They may aggregate suppliers on the back end and try to pass the buck as much as possible, but if you book using expedias 'Flight+Hotel' section then they are your agent and its classed as a package holiday.

If you book the hotels yourself and flights yourself separately, but still through expedia (eg, not using the 'flight+hotel' option) then you are on whats called a 'DIY Package' and expedia are well within their rights to just let you know the flight was cancelled and expect you to make alternative arrangements (More on that at ATOL here http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...90&pageid=6453). However, they are still your agent as you are paying them

[Caspar]

Re: Flight cancellation by airline

Do you mind me asking why a flight via an alternative destination is not acceptable. Shamen is right in saying that you agreed to the T&C's when you booked. If you did it on line, the chances are you even ticked a box saying so (or didn't untick it).

If the alternative is reasonable in that it gets you to your destination without undue delay or interruption, then I think you may have a problem. If, however, the alternative is going to take 12 hours longer and stop 10 times then it is not reasonable. That is why Shamen asked the question he did in the first reply.

[Lynnzer]

Re: Flight cancellation by airline

They will be able to argue that you agreed to the terms and conditions when you made the booking (as you need to tick the box in order to book), however I know most people dont read those so its a question of 'were they made known enough' but really I wouldn’t like to be the guy arguing that one with big business limited.

If you bought your flights and hotel through expedia in the UK and they were bought together, as a package (Eg, you clicked on the 'Flight+Hotel option), then you are covered by ATOL. AFAIK, ATOL will cover you in the circumstance of a flight cancellation, however they (Expedia) may try to argue that is not appropriate as there is an alternative flight offered for no extra money.



Your point is you paid for a direct flight, so that is what you should get. Expedias point is that flight is not available any more and they can only offer you an indirect one without extra costs. The question then becomes are expedia acting in good faith with that stance when a direct flight was booked originally. That is a question I suggest you pose to ATOL.

Irrespective of what they claim, they are your agent. They may aggregate suppliers on the back end and try to pass the buck as much as possible, but if you book using expedias 'Flight+Hotel' section then they are your agent and its classed as a package holiday.

If you book the hotels yourself and flights yourself separately, but still through expedia (eg, not using the 'flight+hotel' option) then you are on whats called a 'DIY Package' and expedia are well within their rights to just let you know the flight was cancelled and expect you to make alternative arrangements (More on that at ATOL here http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...90&pageid=6453). However, they are still your agent as you are paying them

All relevant and appropriate to bookings made online but this was a telephone booking. There were no boxes to tick, no terms and conditions were mentioned to us or agreed, or even sent separately by email. So failure on that part wouldn't stand up in any action I doubt.
I think I'll wait and see what is agreed by the group of friends as to other arrangements or dates that they would agree to first before I set the ball rolling but your input has been very welcome.
Just keep watching as I'll publish any movement on this for the befit of others in the same situation.

[Lynnzer]

Re: Flight cancellation by airline

Do you mind me asking why a flight via an alternative destination is not acceptable. Shamen is right in saying that you agreed to the T&C's when you booked. If you did it on line, the chances are you even ticked a box saying so (or didn't untick it).

If the alternative is reasonable in that it gets you to your destination without undue delay or interruption, then I think you may have a problem. If, however, the alternative is going to take 12 hours longer and stop 10 times then it is not reasonable. That is why Shamen asked the question he did in the first reply.

Sorry Casper, your reply dropped in just as I posted my last.
A test of reasonableness in switching a direct flight to a non direct flight when a direct flight was the original basis of acceptance in the first place would, I think, be that it wouldn't be considered reasonable.
If we had wanted an indirect flight we would have booked one from Newcastle rather Manchester as it's only 20 minutes up the road rather than 2 hours away.
It's also a fact that most indirect flights are less expensive than direct ones as they are mixed together by the airline/booking agent to provide the cheapest alternative to direct.
In this case we wouldn't know that as so long has passed since the original booking. However, since Expedia have told us of a direct flight with a different airline,on the same day from the same airport they are in a position to fulfil the agreement
Right now they tell us it will cost around £140 extra per person. We would also have to await a refund of the original payment which could take up to 12 weeks thereby making it a distinct possibilty that when the new booking was made when the cash becomes available the price could have risen anyway, or the flight be filled already.

[shamen]

Re: Flight cancellation by airline

Last time I made a telephone booking with expedia, they emailed me a copy of the terms. Not sure if that happened in your case though. Also, as you made the booking in one go, on the phone with an agent, I would think it hard for expedia to claim this was a 'DIY' holiday and not a package holiday, so please get in touch with ATOL and get their advice.

What are the exact details of the alternative flight they have offered - eg how many stops, whats the wait time at any connecting airport? That is the key here.

As you are closer to newcastle, can they not offer an alternative indirect flight from there?

[Lynnzer]

Re: Flight cancellation by airline

Last time I made a telephone booking with expedia, they emailed me a copy of the terms. Not sure if that happened in your case though.

Terms and Conditions from their email:
You must read these terms and conditions and accept them unconditionally by clicking on the appropriate box before making a booking. It is not possible to proceed with the booking process without this acceptance. You undertake to fulfil the obligations contained within these terms and conditions.The agreement between you and Expedia Travel comes into force as soon as we provide written confirmation to you by e-mail.
This email was the actual confirmation of booking AFTER it was made, not before. I guess they send thousands of these out every year and have come to accept that people think they're bound by them. They aren't. You cannot impose a retrospective agreement. It isn't an agreement unless it's agreed by both parties to it and failure to have "the box ticked" nullifies this particular contract in my understanding of the law. It doesn't require a brain surgeon to recognise that this tick the box requirement can't possibly be applicable to telephone bookings.

As you are closer to newcastle, can they not offer an alternative indirect flight from there?

Delta Airlines don't fly from Newcastle so that isn't an option anyway. They will still operate an indirect flight from Manchester on the required date as already mentioned however this adds a few hours onto the time and in any case, the basis of the booking request was for a DIRECT Flight.
I'm reading their "Agreement" that I didn't sign up to in the first place.
4.1 General
We will inform you immediately of changes to or differences in your travel arrangements. Changes or differences to the travel contract that become necessary after the contract has been concluded and are not brought about by us in bad faith are permitted insofar as the changes or differences are not significant (I contend that they are) and they do not affect the overall character of the trip booked. Flight time information cannot be considered binding. The same rights apply to the altered arrangements as applied in respect of the original arrangements.

4.2 Price changes
If the time between booking and the agreed date of travel is greater than 30 days, we retain the right to change the prices agreed at the time of booking to reflect increases or decreases in transport costs (including fuel costs); payments for dues, taxes, fees such as landing taxes or embarkation or disembarkation fees at ports/airports; and change to the applicable exchange rates if the increase or decrease per person or per seat has an effect on the cost of the trip. Expedia Travel will absorb - and you will not be charged for - any increase of up to 2% of the price of the total travel arrangements, excluding insurance premiums and any amendment charges. You will be charged for the amount over and above this. If this means you have to pay an increase of more than 10% of the price of the travel arrangements, you will have the option of accepting an alternative holiday if Expedia Travel are able to offer one (if this is of equivalent or superior quality you will not have to pay more but if it is of lower quality the difference in price will be refunded), (they can offer an exactly similar holiday. It involves keeping the same flight date, the same hotel, in fact everything the same as on the original booking except that the carrier becomes American Airlines) and is at a greater cost in accordance with 4.3 of the Agreement.) or cancelling and receiving a full refund of monies paid. Should the price of the holiday decrease by more than 2% of the holiday cost due to the changes mentioned above you will receive any refund due.

There will be no price changes within 30 days of the date of travel.

4.3 Significant changes
In the case of a significant change to your trip, you have the right to cancel the travel contract and receive a refund of all monies paid, to take a replacement package of equivalent or superior quality at no additional cost to you (if we are able to offer you such a trip) or to take a replacement package of lower quality (again if we are able to offer you such a trip) in which case we will refund you the difference between the cost of your original package and your replacement package. You must exercise your rights as detailed in Articles 4.2 and 4.3 as soon as possible after we have informed you of a price increase or other significant change to your trip.

4.4 In the event that a significant change occurs, we will pay you compensation as shown in the compensation table below, unless the change is as a result of situations outside our control which neither we nor our suppliers could foresee or forestall even with all due care. We consider the following to be examples of significant changes to your holiday and will pay compensation dependant on the time before your departure that we notify you about the change:

- Change of accommodation to a hotel in the same area;
- Change of flight departure time by more than [12 hours];
- Change of departure airport to an airport in a different city;
- Change in the length of your holiday;
- Change of departure date
- Price increase of more than 10% .
I've left this final series of points in to give an idea of "EXAMPLES" of significant changes. If a change of hotel, even in the same location is considered significant then so must be a change from direct to indirect, wouldn't you think?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
Edited bit. Try this for size. Just emailed to Expedia.
I am contacting you regarding the cancellation of the flights associated with these bookings which are a group booking for 8.
I have been informed that the reason the flights were cancelled is that Delta have dropped direct flights to the destination at that time.
As the booking was made on the strict understanding that the journey was to be made with direct flights we are not willing to take indirect now as a consequence. Your operator has told us that we can take an indirect flight with Delta instead, from the same airport, on the same day, however had we wanted indirect we would have made this arrangement by flying from Newcastle which is only a few minutes from home rather the two hours from Manchester.
Direct flight was a "condition" of the booking and was specifically requested during the booking conversation. In that case, this is a significant change as highlighted in your "Agreement" just as a minor change of hotel in the same location would be considered significant.

I am also told by your representative that he can arrange a direct flight on the same day, from the same airport with American Airlines however it would cost almost £140 extra per person.
Section 4.3 of "The Agreement":
4.3 Significant changes
In the case of a significant change to your trip, you have the right to cancel the travel contract and receive a refund of all monies paid, to take a replacement package of equivalent or superior quality at no additional cost to you (if we are able to offer you such a trip) or to take a replacement package of lower quality (again if we are able to offer you such a trip) in which case we will refund you the difference between the cost of your original package and your replacement package. You must exercise your rights as detailed in Articles 4.2 and 4.3 as soon as possible after we have informed you of a price increase or other significant change to your trip.
We have "been offered" this alternative already, pointing to the bracketed codicil in the previous paragraph.
Please arrange this equivalent package using American Airlines at no extra cost, in accordance with our rights under this section and inform me when you have done so.

[Lynnzer]

Done and dusted

By God, don't you just get a huge feeling of satisfaction when you achieve what you know is the right result.
I spent another 3 hours on the telephone last night being passed from department to department. I insisted on speaking with the highest level of manager in every case and eventually found myself talking to a Senior Agent in one place.
I invoked section 4.3 of their terms and conditions and told him that I had the right to insist on the change to American Airlines and he told me it wasn't the company policy !!!!!!!!!!
Can you believe it?
He couldn't tell me where I could find a copy of this policy and although " I agree that there has been a significant change" in the booking I can't reschedule you onto a flight that Delta doesn't have control of because you're bound by their terms.
I reminded him of the fact that the payment made was to Expedia and shows on the Visa Statement as a payment to Expedia. At no time did we make an individual contract with Delta. As the booking was with Expedia, and we are bound by the "terms and conditions" sent to us by Expedia then Expedia are bound to fulfil their own terms and conditions to us.
He insisted that it just wasn't their policy and told me I was wasting my time pressing on with this and that even if he put me onto a senior person I would get the same answer.
In the end I got the name of the overall manager of the unit who would be in at 10.00 this morning.
So at 10.15 I called said lady.
I gave her the itinerary numbers and told her that to avoid any misinterpretation I was recording the call in case I needed to refer to it at a later stage.
So, once she found the details I asked if she had a copy of their terms and conditions at hand. She wandered off for 15 minutes to find some. Wouldn't you think they had them at hand.
Anyway, I asked her if she thought the cancellation of the original Delta Airline flight was a significant change as per S 4.1 of the T & C's. She agreed it was.
I asked her to conform this once more and I "read it back to her" saying it exactly as she did.
So I then pointed her to S 4.3 and referred to the fact that they had an obligation to offer a similar or superior package without any further cost.
She put me on hold for another 15 minutes then cam back and confirmed she was doing exactly that. We are now on the direct flight with American Airlines at no extra cost.

Just for the attention of others going down this route, can I add the fact that the payment to Delta was made by Expedia. They kept telling me that I could take a refund from Delta then make a fresh booking with American Airlines (at the extra cost) but of course as the refund would take up to 12 weeks this would have been impossible. I reminded them that the payment to Delta was made by Expedia and any refund would go to them. Delta aren't aware of what payment means was made in the first place and even if they did, they couldn't make a direct refund to our Visa card as they weren't the company who received the payment from us.
This insistence on having to wait for a refund from Delta is a complete load of hogwash.

Two battles fought with Expedia now and both won using their own contract and the relevant law appertaining to it

Edit
Just in case you are in a similar position to this, the lady I spoke to was called Sara who is the manager, and she's on 020310652060 and the email address for the unit is travel@support.expedia.co.uk or her personal email address that she gave me to speed up her receipt of my acceptance to the change is shalvish.jyothi@trx.com

[shamen]

Re: Flight cancellation by airline

Congratulations! Very well done