New Member Advice

[Guest]

Re: New Member Advice

I assure you I am not the least bit annoyed, but I would warrant that your wife is by now, considering that you stated that this has been going on since May and in July you were not sure of how much more of this she would put up with.

The remedy you seek has been provided for you by an Act of Parliament. The Act is specific and provides that you can recover the entire sum, even if all you paid was the deposit.

I advised a claim of £5000 for a reason which, as specified above, is that the most you could lose, in the event that the court decides you do not have a valid claim is the filing fee. However, given that you are making a claim under Primary Legislation, a county court does not have the power to overrule this.

You have both Statute and Common Law on your side. NatWest are liable for the full sum that you originally agreed to pay for the fire, installation and any other associated works.

As above (and in countless other posts) issue your claim for £5000 without any further delay.

If you would like help with composing your particulars of claim, then come back and ask. To get you started, this is the basis for a claim made under s.75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Brief Details of Claim

Claim for breach of contract and mis-representation pursuant to Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.


PARTICULARS OF CLAIM

1. At all material times the Claimant was the holder of a credit card which was issued to the Claimant by the Defendant under an agreement dated (date credit card taken out)

2. On the (date fire was ordered) the Claimant purchased a gas fire, installation and other associated work from (name of the supplier) hereinafter, the "supplier".

3. The Claimant placed the order for the fire and paid a deposit of (amount of deposit paid) using the credit card provided by the Defendant. It was an implied condition of sale that the goods and the installation would be carried out satisfactorily, be compliant with regulations and applicable legislation and be fit for purpose and free from defects.

4. As a result of a pre-existing arrangement between the Defendant and the supplier, the supplier accepted the Defendant's credit card in payment for the deposit.

5. (At this point, list the faults, issues with installation and the safety concerns)

6. Due to the misrepresentation and/or breach of contract, the Claimant has suffered loss and damage in the sum of £5000.00 being the total price of the goods ordered, including £300 for distress and inconvenience, £100 for postage, telephone calls, stationery and sundry expenses.

7. Pursuant to section 75(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the Defendant is jointly and severally liable with the supplier for the loss and damage.

The Claimant claims against the Defendant the following:-

1) The sum of £5000.00, or alternatively

2) Damages for misrepresentation and/or breach of contract in the amount of £5000.00

3) Interest pursuant to Section 69 County Courts Act 1984 of £(sum) or at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment at a daily rate of £1.10

4) Costs.

Statement of Truth

I believe that the facts stated in these Particulars of Claim are true.

You will need to elaborate on the finer details, include the correct figures and make sure they all add up, but it's a start and if you need further help, come back and ask.

[Guest]

Re: New Member Advice

I would also not recover any of the money owed if I lose and will have to wait another month or two to get it sorted. Is it possible to take the offer from credit card co and then take trader to court for all the inconvenience and my loss of earnings due to the job taking twice as long?

As I pointed out in post #2, it will be a great deal easier and faster to issue your claim against NatWest than against the trader. He will very likely argue, NatWest will not.

If you limit your claim to £5000, as advised, then you have minimal risk as your court costs will be covered by NatWest when they pay you and in the unlikely event that they successfully defend the claim, they will be unable to claim costs against you and your only loss will be the filing fee.

Your excuse regarding how long it will take does not make much sense, given that this has been going on since May and the length of time it has taken you to get to this stage.

You now have all the information you need, what you choose to do is entirely up to you.

[Budgie]

Re: New Member Advice

John,

I have sat and read this thread this evening and strongly urge you to take onboard Cetelco's advice, which has been repeated many times throughout the thread and file your claim without further delay.

If you file your claim this week you will probably have full settlement in your hands before the end of October as it is highly likely that NatWest will settle as soon as they receive details of your court claim.

To be honest I haven't seen a potential claim as cut and dried as this one before and cannot understand your reluctance to get things moving.

Budgie

[John3421]

Re: New Member Advice

I appreciate your advice Cetelco as i have through out. I am at a stage now
where i can recover almost a £1000 and probably have the job re fitted for £1000. In total the job will have cost me £2000 instead of £4000. As I said before I have no experience in these matters and going against Nat west in court is a daunting thought. I take your point also about the length of time to get to this stage, but I would really like it finishing before Christmas.

[WendyB]

Re: New Member Advice

Well I have to say at this point that if you followed the previous advice you would have it sorted by Christmas because Natwest will settle as soon as the N1 drops throug their letter box. They can't argue with it as it is covered by an Act of Parliament. It's not a bank chage reclaim they can brush under the OFT case carpet.

Please do bear in mnd that winter is on the way and you would probaly find a working gas fire quite welcome.

[John3421]

Re: New Member Advice

Cetelco I am filling claim in but can you explain what figures are needed in the below sections.

1) The sum of £5000.00, or alternatively

2) Damages for misrepresentation and/or breach of contract in the amount of £5000.00

The total cost of the fire was £4023.25 so do I add £300 for distress and then £100 for phones calls etc. Making my claim £4423.25.

Thanks.

[Guest]

Re: New Member Advice

The figures were for illustrative purposes. Since you were not sure how much to sue for, or indeed whether to sue at all, I suggested filing a claim for an unspecified sum in excess of £5000 in order to have NatWest sit up and take notice.

Your claim should be for the full, original invoice cost of the fire and all the associated work that you have since been put to due to the breach of contract and/or mis-representation of the supplier, for which NatWest are jointly and severally liable under an Act of Parliament.

If the original cost that you had agreed with the supplier was £4023.25 you take that as your starting point, then add your costs, sum for compensation and interest. Interest is calculated from the day the fire should have been completed but was not and is calculated on the £4023.25 at a rate of 8% simple interest per annum. The easiest way to do this is to take the sum owed and multiply by 0.00022, which gives you a daily rate of 89p.

In relation to your claim for other costs and compensation, you need to keep these realistic which is why I suggested £300. However, if you can justify a larger sum then do so. Telephone calls, stationery and postage should be included and your time, as a litigant in person, can be charged at rate of £9.25 per hour. Add up the hours you have spent on this and include this in your claim.

If you keep your claim below £5000 you stand a very good chance of ensuring that it will remain on the Small Claims Track in particular because it is very straightforward, notwithstanding the fact that I doubt very much that this will ever reach that stage as NatWest will fold long before then.

Once you have written your particulars of claim, post them here for review if you wish.

[charitynjw]

Re: New Member Advice

Hi folks,

@John............Over #4000 for a gas fire installation????? - were they building a chimney/flue system as well?
Also, I'm surprised that Gas Safe have been so lenient - Corgi would have been on them like a ton (sorry, hundreds and hundreds of kgs) of bricks.

It's been a while since I was in the gas industry (Training Manager), but I'm pretty certain that the installers could be prosecuted under GSIUR (Gas safety (Installation & Use) Regs, (or a more recent update - like I said, it's been a while) if the job was dangerous.
They would have been dealt with very swiftly & severely by CORGI at the very least.

@Cetelco - How do you calculate for distress/inconvenience/stuff that you can't show receipts for?
Is there some kind of table (quantum?)

your advice would be most appreciated

[charitynjw]

Re: New Member Advice

Hi everyone.

An update (sort of!)

I had a word with a mate of mine who's still in the business. (Gas installations)

He says there's been no change re GSIUR since I've been awol.

GasSafe seem a lot "tamer" than CORGI (rottweiler was more apt if you were an installer - you were checked every 3 years, & they chose which of your installations would be under scrutiny. If a complaint was made against you, it was brown trouser time).

As GasSafe are new, maybe it's just a "honeymoon" period re installers.

But if the "cowboys" (allegedly) are registered with them, I'm sure that GasSafe could bring pressure to bear on them (anyone remember Chuck Connors in "Branded"!! - my dad told me about it, honest!)

It would save you the hassle.

I'll find out a bit more if you want (if ok with Beagles)

Regards

cnjw

[John3421]

Re: New Member Advice

Hi charitynjw,
Yes you are correct Gas Safe are allot less likely to take action than Corgi were, this is what I have been hearing.

Well yesterday i had the job completed by another company. Everything done correctly this time. I filled in the small claims form on line only a couple of days ago as I have been so busy and had to get all claim info into 24 lines and 1080 letters not an easy task.

Have just received another letter from Nat west this morning offering the full amount of my deposit back £2011.62 and £50 compensation. The letter is dated before I sent in the court action so they would have been unaware of this when they sent it out.

Am I better rejecting this again and taking it to court for the full amount of £4500.00. Or accepting this offer i have been sent? Would a judge in court look at the case and say well you have got your money back and kept the fire worth £2000.00 this is enough compensation?

I must end by saying you folks on this forum certainly know your stuff and I appreciate your input and advice on this matter.

Thanks John

[Amy]

Re: New Member Advice

If your original cost was £4,023.25, why would you accept a paltry sum of £2,061.62?

[Guest]

Re: New Member Advice

Hi charitynjw,
Yes you are correct Gas Safe are allot less likely to take action than Corgi were, this is what I have been hearing.

Well yesterday i had the job completed by another company. Everything done correctly this time. I filled in the small claims form on line only a couple of days ago as I have been so busy and had to get all claim info into 24 lines and 1080 letters not an easy task.

Have just received another letter from Nat west this morning offering the full amount of my deposit back £2011.62 and £50 compensation. The letter is dated before I sent in the court action so they would have been unaware of this when they sent it out.

Am I better rejecting this again and taking it to court for the full amount of £4500.00. Or accepting this offer i have been sent? Would a judge in court look at the case and say well you have got your money back and kept the fire worth £2000.00 this is enough compensation?

I must end by saying you folks on this forum certainly know your stuff and I appreciate your input and advice on this matter.

Thanks John

You are still not understanding the law pertaining to your situation, despite numerous explanations.

I am reduced therefore to the most shameful plagiarism from none other than Martin Lewis.

This is how he explains section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and how it pertains to part payment and breach of contract.

Q. What if I only pay the deposit on the credit card?

A. The law’s very specific, you get the protection for the whole thing even if you only pay for a part of it on the card, provided what you pay for costs more than £100 (and less than £30,000).

Here’s a quick example of how it works…

Savvy Salma spots the high tech TV she’s been planning to buy at half price for £500 including delivery in a high street sale. Yet she’s only got £10 left on her card limit (don’t worry, it’s a cashback card, she’s going to pay it off in full).

Salma pays £10 of the cost on her credit card and the rest on her debit card. Sadly the next day the store goes bust, before her telly is delivered. Yet she can claim the WHOLE £500 back from the credit card company, because she paid in part on the card.

Therefore if you want protection…

As long as it costs more than £100, pay for even a fraction on a credit card and you’re protected.

In relation to your specific situation, NatWest are jointly and severally liable along with the original supplier of the fire for the full value of the fire irrespective of the fact that you only paid the deposit and the same would be true had you only paid £100 deposit, instead of over £2000.

Therefore they must not only repay you the deposit, but refund you for the full value of the contract that has been breached.

District Judges in civil cases do not make the law, they apply it and in this instance, you have the full weight of an Act of Parliament on your side.

[John3421]

Re: New Member Advice

Thanks Cetelco I understand what you are saying and will wait and see what response I get from them and let you know.


Thanks again.

[Budgie]

Re: New Member Advice

Thanks Cetelco I understand what you are saying and will wait and see what response I get from them and let you know.


Thanks again.

What response are you waiting for from them ?

They have made you an offer, you either accept that offer or proceed with legal action to recover what you are legally entitled to recover.

The ball appears to be in your court ( excuse the pun !!!!!! )

Budgie

[John3421]

Re: New Member Advice

Hi Budgie,
I was meaning I would see what response I get when Nat West get the correspondence from the court.