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Vehicle found to be non road legal

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  • #46
    Have you not yet received directions regarding filing and serving of witness statements?

    Suggest you contact court to find out.

    The judge won't be acting as a mediator!

    Comment


    • #47
      No, we haven't . This is the "triage" call I posted about on April 26th.

      Comment


      • #48
        As explained earlier this triage hearing is to allow the court to determine if your case can be dealt with via telephone or zoom, what directions need to be given for a final hearing etc.
        It is possible for the judge to determine the matter having heard from both parties, so it could turn out to be the final hearing
        Not having been present I can't possibly guess how the hearing will progress

        This triage system has been trialled at a few courts to see if the court delays can be shortened.
        You might like to read these reports: April-2021-The-Resolution-of-Small-Claims-interim-report-FINAL.pdf & https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...rt-FINAL-2.pdf
        Or a brief summary here: https://assets.publishing.service.go...assessment.pdf
        Or an even briefer summary here: https://kennedyslaw.com/thought-lead...uture-changes/

        Comment


        • #49
          Thank you .By coincidence I'd downloaded the 2021 Judiciary report earlier today ..

          Comment


          • #50
            des8 Triage was short and sweet with the General manager appearing for the dealer.
            The Judge suggested trying to settle out court saying " we weren't a million miles away" with their £500 offer and our £1000 demand.
            He clarified that it all comes down to how the car was described in the advert regarding the presence or otherwise of a cat and the WhatsApp message that they claim informed the claimant that the car wasn't road legal.

            We have now received a ( remote) trial date in December

            ​​​​​​In reply to an email sent to the dealer offering to settle for £900, LD have replied offering the same £500, together with the signing of a non disclosure agreement.

            A few questions If neither claimant nor defendant have legal representation, the claimant has to put the electronic court bundle together and send it via email to the court and the defendant.
            ​​Witness statements also have to be shared between the 2 parties

            In the email where we suggested the £900 settlement we also asked the defendant if they would confirm their preferred email address, and also whether or not they'd have a legal representative for the trial.

            The reply we received from LD didn't answer either of the questions
            1. Going forward should we just assume that we send everything to LD and that we will be compiling the court bundle?
            2. is it possible that LD will attempt to slow things down in providing / agreeing the contents of the bundle ?
            2. As it's a remote trial , will it be admissable for the defendant to communicate with LD privately during the trial?

            Thank you .



            Comment


            • #51
              AFAIK Lawdata are not the defendants legal representative so
              1)The defendant should be sending everything they want included in the bundle to you the claimant.
              2) you produce the bundle and email it to the defendant (not lawdata) and the court.
              3)lawdata have no standing in court and should not be consulted during the trial. Presumably this will be a zoom call or whatever so will be difficult for them anyway
              Always follow court directions to the letter

              ""In reply to an email sent to the dealer offering to settle for £900, LD have replied offering the same £500, together with the signing of a non disclosure agreement."" do they think you are playing games!

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by des8 View Post
                AFAIK Lawdata are not the defendants legal representative so
                1)The defendant should be sending everything they want included in the bundle to you the claimant.
                2) you produce the bundle and email it to the defendant (not lawdata) and the court.
                3)lawdata have no standing in court and should not be consulted during the trial. Presumably this will be a zoom call or whatever so will be difficult for them anyway
                Always follow court directions to the letter

                ""In reply to an email sent to the dealer offering to settle for £900, LD have replied offering the same £500, together with the signing of a non disclosure agreement."" do they think you are playing games!
                PS write (1st with free certificate of posting from PO) to defendant directly (not Ld) telling them they need to send you the documentation they require in the bundle, and you need their email address to comply with court directions. Warn them that any failure will be drawn to the court's attention

                Comment


                • #53
                  Thanks des8 . Will do as you say/suggest Assume we need to respond to the defendant re their layest offer

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Assuming you still find their unchanged offer unacceptable, write declining it, but don't at this stage make a counter offer.
                    There is no need to remind them your offer of £900 is now automatically withdrawn

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      des8
                      Originally posted by Getitdone View Post
                      Next comes back a letter which includes a very poor copy of text which was included in some of the adverts for the car , and they now state that we knew the car didn't have a cat at the time of purchase.
                      The text that was included in the ad was obviously originally written as a promotional ad or SM post by the company who carried out the modifications and tuning as their name is at the beginning of the first sentence!
                      Its plain to see by anyone who's not trying to wriggle out of knowingly selling a non roadworthy car
                      ​​​that it doesn't specifically refer to the car being sold .
                      Its a description of what they offer at the various stages of tuning and modification.
                      In reference to the cat at Stage 2 it says " at this stage we address the restrictive exhaust system. We remove the first cat completely and then either replace the 2nd cat with a sports cat or remove it completely"

                      They've also sent a copy of a WhatsApp message they sent where they burble on about offering to reduce the power of the car to a more road legal limit., whatever that means They don't include the message sent in reply, which was that we would see how the power was once we'd owned it for a while , and then make a decision whether we wanted to reduce the level of engine tune.
                      Re witness statement .
                      We're aware that it shouldn't form part of the legal argument but should include any evidence that we consider proves our claim.

                      Our claim is that they sold a vehicle that didn't have a catalytic converter and therefore wasn't road legal.

                      Their defence is that the car was advertised as having had the cat removed and they've provided the barely legible text document mentioned in para' 2 of my quote above.
                      The text only document doesn't ID the vehicle at all , isn't an advert and they haven't provided a copy of/ link to an advert for the vehicle

                      They initially said the car was advertised as a Track car and that the invoice stated Track car, however in their reply to our claim they conceded that it wasn't advertised as a Track car, but reiterated the description on the invoice

                      I think we're getting confused about what we need to put into the witness statement and what we include as exhibits and we're probably putting too much into it.

                      1. do we base the witness statement on the content of the claim form?

                      2. is the witness statement the place to refute their statement that the car was advertised as having had the cat removed by referring to the applicable sentences and exhibit an advert that includes the text?
                      3. if we can't locate an advert that includes the text what can we use as an exhibit?
                      4. what do we need to say regarding their Track car tactic considering they've now said it wasn't advertised as a track car? We're not disagreeing that the invoice states track car
                      5 .same question with the Whatsapp message that they've produced as proof that we knew the car wasn't road legal.
                      They (obviously) haven't produced son's reply containing words to the effect that he'll see what the power's like and if he thinks its too much then he might reduce it at a later date so should we produce that?

                      Thank you!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Your witness statement is just a recital of what has happened.
                        You do not use it to argue points or discuss questions of law ... all that comes at the trial

                        If you can't find the advert you just cannot include it as an exhibit altho' you mention the fact that you saw an advert (exhibit number i or 2 or whatever) which did not menbtion the cat had been removed.

                        You mention and include transcriptions of all emails, messages and telephone conversations

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by des8 View Post
                          Your witness statement is just a recital of what has happened.
                          You do not use it to argue points or discuss questions of law ... all that comes at the trial

                          If you can't find the advert you just cannot include it as an exhibit altho' you mention the fact that you saw an advert (exhibit number i or 2 or whatever) which did not menbtion the cat had been removed.

                          You mention and include transcriptions of all emails, messages and telephone conversations
                          Thank you

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            des8 if there's a particular part of a wordy exhibit that's vital to the case and the document isn't set out in paragraphs , in addition to referring to and submitting the whole document ,is it permissible to copy the relevant section and submit that too so that the Judge can easily see the relevant information ? Thanks

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Yes, or just highlight it and draw attention to it

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Thank you des8
                                Sent witness statement to the court and defendant and we received defendants witness statements about 12 hours later.
                                Gosh Glad we busted a gut to try and do everything correctly.

                                Hypothetically, if 3 witnesses produce absolutely identical statements , even down to a spelling error, and two of them didn't do what they're claiming to have done and in fact one of them wasn't in a position to make a statement because they weren't involved at any time, how will a Judge view this and would the claimant need to do anything prior to submitting the bundle ?

                                What goes into the bundle is supposed to be agreed by both parties . Presumably all witness statements that have been produced must go into the bundle whether agreed or not?

                                Just need to write a neutral case summary and then create and send the bundle.

                                Comment

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