Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

**R0b** · 16th July 2017, 20:35:PM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

Evening,

From what I've read I am afraid you might be onto a loser. Firstly, it is common for landlords to try and create an obligation for the tenant to carry out repairs etc in a better standard than what was at the time. Your solicitor should have carried out sufficient checks, searches, enquiries etc. and advised accordingly - a good solicitor would have done all of this but also negotiated the repair obligation so that you only need to upkeep in the same standard at the time of entering into the agreement.

As for the murder, manslaughter etc. I think that is a bit of a stretch and unlikely for you to rely on and in any event they are criminal offences not civil. Another point to note is that this is a business to business transaction and there is no consumer equivalent. The courts are reluctant to interfere in these transactions and they have stated on a number of times you can't just get out of it because you have now realised you've had a bad deal.

If you've paid your solicitor then they should have a file of papers on your transaction which you can ask a copy of and they will probably charge you for it, though if its past 6 years they may have destroyed them. The solicitor may have made enquiries to the seller and depending on those responses to the questions there may be a case of misrepresentation if the seller has falsely stated that there were no previous structural issues or safety problems. Equally, it is also possible that your solicitor may have some responsibility if he or she failed to carry out the necessary checks that a reasonably skilled solicitor would do who works in a real estate department and in that case it would be professional negligence but again, you could be out of time for that as the limitation period is generally 6 years from the date of the negligence, though in some instance sit can be 3 years from the date of knowledge.

**distress** · 16th July 2017, 21:32:PM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

That is not about general keeping building better then it was original. From empty space we have made it to productive shop/shops, we have built up good relation ship to client. not bash every one above the ear who came along/

There is also an other matter, less than three years after sold the lease to me, land lord put building for a lot longer lease on auction. They appears in a different light now is it not?

How the jury, the judge or you would feel when a land lord smiley and shaking-handly sold you an apartment lease in a block, only then less then 3 year later they put you through hell with bills of repair work they honestly swearing they never have seen or intended before

There is a clause about repair. external repair taken care by land lord and internal repair obliged by the tenant. Roof is clearly outside. You can argue tear and wear, but is there not a law that a product should last in reasonable time frame even out of guarantee period. A steal beam under roof fully rusted through in 9 years is a little bit excessive.

Can my lawyer argue why not finding out about the fault less then 6 yrs after purchase on hard economic time, at certain point rent is too high that we have to use all the room available, hence we find out now. and not 6 years earlier.?

What about not only during the purchase but at the first basement flooding The land lord did hide that fact when I report the flooding in the basement in 2010, it pushed the fault on other building, the Housing association, instead of come out clean that there was a fire and maybe the roof has not been repair correctly. Neighbour who grew up in the area told me there were 2 fires not only one, fire engines and police blue light everywhere. also at that time seeing it took much too long I paid from my pocket, they never ask again, as if never a flooding in there...

Well in a sense I still got my round, because all potential auction buyers came into the basement I shown them the water mark, that the owner let me took the bill, those shown me big eyes, turned silence and never came back again.

If you had a car accident, you repair badly the frame and push it cheap to someone, he got involved in a fatal accident, because losing of control, if the evidence is hidden bent car frame, steering, break etc were fatally affected the cheated seller can not deny responsibility,

But the same rule is not between business and business transfer! When a roof or wall could have collapsed, only "tough luck"! I can not believe something like that is allowed to slip through never-minded in English or Europe Union law

**R0b** · 16th July 2017, 22:09:PM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

When it comes to property (both residential and commercial) you may have heard of the phrase 'buyer beware'. The onus is on the buyer/renter to find out as much information as possible about the property before entering into it and there is no legal obligation for the landlord/seller to disclose anything except things that they could not have found out themselves e.g. restrictive covenants.

Many occasions businesses who are not represented by solicitors enter into agreements only to realise somethings wrong later down the line - sadly, there is no comeback for this and if you are renting a duff property then your still going to have to pay the rent. You are entering into a business to business transaction and have also instructed a solicitor to carry out the necessary checks and searches etc. If you are using the same solicitor you should consult on this find out what was said by the landlord when they carried out searches and enquiries about the property. It is unusual not to have any structural survey carried out but again the onus is on you to do this (or perhaps your solicitor to advise on this).

You might think its unfair but you are acting in a business capacity and are free to negotiate the terms of the contract and that is the general principle concerning B2B transactions hence the reluctance for courts to meddle with what was agreed. Of course courts might conclude on occasions that a clause is unfair but it isn't easy to prove.

You said you've got a solicitor who is dealing with this, why don't you divert these questions to that him/her? If your not satisfied with those answers or you don't understand then get them to explain in writing what it means, they should be doing that - and if you are not happy with the responses, make a complaint.

**distress** · 16th July 2017, 22:32:PM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

I had a solicitor at the purchase, there were seller's solicitor and land lord solicitor. I have been made to accept
- paid half the fee of land lord solicitor or no deal ...
- 6 months deposit or no deal
- also the flooding in 2010 (there were no receipt but witness,) I end up paid just to get on with trading instead of fighting about small prints and paragraph.
Could you believe it? I don't want to use a very bad word for these. They knew that at the purchase 2008/2009 I was new to trading. Not that I hid it.

The problem is I don't remember my solicitor name at the purchase time, But I coincidentally ran into the seller's solicitor, I I see land lord solicitor are still the same.

The current solicitor is a him. Should he not pick up the roof damage as something fishy here and stop and think hang on not so fast to accept new condition. If I were solicitor I would stop and think. You can not sit there, meet, talk to the land lord and act as everything is normal "Only one just succeed to scam an other and got away with it, tough luck." Since when it is normal standard if you can scam other and get way too, just do it?

**distress** · 16th July 2017, 23:04:PM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

Originally posted by R0b View Post

Evening,

The courts are reluctant to interfere in these transactions and they have stated on a number of times you can't just get out of it because you have now realised you've had a bad deal.
.

I don't back out or want to come out because I have had a bad deal. I instructed and insisted energy company install smart meters I press them to do it since more than two years. I spend money to repair since it took too long on waiting for land lord side, which I could have done, reporting with health and safety and so on.

My chance my capability of coping with business rate and rent increase by opening new trading opportunity is shattered and delayed because of the roof problem, Because of delay I loss my deposit paid to my builder and could lose more when in three or six month I instruct an other builder contractor doing that job. Everyone know price change every week/month and trader bill is getting only more expensive

I want that the land lord takes responsibility and makes up for what I had planed and financial have lost, the time the opportunity I could have fight again all these hike of cost... all lost, because this roof issue... the problem which has been hidden for so long.

**R0b** · 16th July 2017, 23:13:PM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

It is difficult for us and probably any other person to know what sort of position you have if we don't have all of the paperwork/information, but you have a lawyer so I would suggest you speak to him, as he is in a better position to give any advice than us. Property litigation is really expensive but if your looking to hold the landlord responsible then that's all I can suggest.

No doubt the solicitor's firm your talking to maybe has a litigation department and you could have a consultation on your prospects of bringing a successful claim, if any. But as for the roof problem, again it is generally the buyer beware principle and the onus is on you not the landlord. Unless you find out who initially did the work and whether the firm still holds the papers on your tenancy, I think your going to struggle however much you suggest its a scam.

**distress** · 16th July 2017, 23:24:PM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

Thank you Rob, I don't want to fight with you. but I have to say what I think. So you know where I am standing and you can judge I am wrong or right would I have a chance or not.

It is not personal OK?

But if what you say is true my belief, that not every entrepreneur is crook, is badly shaken, man or woman.

**R0b** · 16th July 2017, 23:34:PM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

I'm not taking anything personally, you are free to say what you like and voice your opinion. Your not the first and won't be the last person to say or feel that things might be a scam because they aren't going as expected or something's gone wrong. That's why there are contracts and agreements in place so both parties agree to what is said in it and if one party doesn't comply, then there will be the remedies set out in the agreement.

The way I see it is that if the LL is at fault or the solicitor perhaps has been negligent in some way, which will entitle you to a remedy but you are likely going to have to go to court over it. If the LL's solicitor is the same as before perhaps the solicitor is likely to have details of your previous solicitor who was acting on your behalf, and may be able to provide you with that information so you can see whether or not the previous documentation exists. Only then can you really determine if a claim would prove fruitful however since your talking 2009, the limitation period is 6 years so your most possibly out of time for such a claim anyway. Unless there is a misrepresentation on any replies to the inquiries your solicitor made then you might have a claim.

**distress** · 16th July 2017, 23:43:PM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

I have been through a court trial before it was 2 years through hell even I won at the end, I thought to the end of my life I never in my life would have to go through court again ...

**distress** · 18th July 2017, 07:20:AM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

Originally posted by R0b View Post

Property litigation is really expensive but if your looking to hold the landlord responsible then that's all I can suggest.

Big question is it was 2009... 8,9 years ago ... Could you find any exemption of law?

Is it the land lord or the seller party .... or both are somehow guilty? or that was the part of my at that time acting lawyer, whose office is no longer active (so how can I find out anything?)

How do you mean "really expensive"... if you had not got an estate, or a legal insurance you could not start the procedure, or you could go bankrupt if you lost the case?

I got update from my current lawyer, still no mention about damage & roof, only he has received the draft of the head lease after we confirmed on 11/7 that we accept the new level of rent (in the hope the land lord would agree to do a quicker assessment and repair so that there would be no too long delay, and my builder would not lose patient and wake away) because land lord site has two different department: Administration and building Management... So with all the delay and potential financial loss, I am going to face the 35K5 rent level

Yesterday checking the VOA for appeal of too high business rate, I have the feeling Rate value (RV) going up, because local rent level going up, then seeing RV going up, land lord push rent level up, having seen land lord successfully pushed rent level to new higher level, VOA will re-valuate and put RV up accordingly.... there seems to be no cap on this spiral of higher and higher going price...

With 52 it is very hard to face the prospect suddenly every thing gone down the drain...

**R0b** · 18th July 2017, 08:52:AM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

The standard position for bringing a claim is 6 years from the date of the cause of action. For misrepresentation claims in property transactions, that will be 6 years from the date of exchange not completion. However, where the relevant facts are not known at the time the cause of action began, then this could be extended to 6 years from when the date the the damage has been caused or three years from the date the claimant knows or ought to have known (a) the material facts about the loss suffered or your cause of action (due to the negligent act or omission which attributed to the loss).

So the starting would be that it is time barred and you would need to have all of the relevant paperwork to determine if the position has changed - which is why you need a solicitor to look at this for you if that's the route you are going to have to go down.

When I say really expensive it is common to run into the tens of thousands and also hundreds of thousands. Amongst other things, property litigation is time consuming and slow so unless you have deep pockets against the landlord, it can be difficult to get any real justice if you do have a claim. If you have any legal insurance then you might want to check what is covered under it as sometimes you may be able to rely on that to bring a claim at little to no cost to yourself.

You should really be discussing these options with your current solicitor because he will know a great deal more than us on your issue. If you are having problems about the building and the new level of rent is an issue, then it would seem logical to look for premises elsewhere rather than the potential for it to go down the drain.

**distress** · 21st July 2017, 09:34:AM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

the structural engineer (S.E.) sent by the LL came yesterday, He said will take 1 or two weeks for complete the report, then LL would find builder once they started it wold take 3 to 4 weeks

I have no own business insurance, but I pay the premium each year through landlord to the building insurance. do yo know will it cover my loss and damage

You said: "...The standard position for bringing a claim is 6 years from the date of the cause of action. For misrepresentation claims in property transactions, that will be 6 years from the date of exchange not completion. However, where the relevant facts are not known at the time the cause of action began, then this could be extended to 6 years..."
Does that count from the fire or from the date I bought the lease?

I have also talked to my lawyer My lawyer also said it was too long ago, under my ream 9 yrs, but there is a small chance "Unless there is reason or proof why the fact of the fire damage is only discovered recently." At the moment because the lease renewal is on the way, he can only propose a clause a rent free period of 6 months, when we sign the new lease, on the other hand no one in the right mind would sign a lease seeing the roof rotten like that, but the main issue is facing the crazy property spiral (although in residential area, not far from my shop in my road two three four property demand high rent standing empty since more than one, even more than two years now -one of them was a local post office-, nobody understand why LL doing that) based on "demand" at the moment, LL could turn down, take it or leave it, sign it now with no rent free, or lease goes elsewhere ...

The S.E. also was surprised two fire in 1997 then in 2000, that is 17 yrs ago, and LL had no record,when I discover it .... "Someone must have known and hide that fact." The lease also changed hand once in 2004 before it came into my hand 2009. If I was inexperienced and made mistake, that party and their lawyer unlikely were also same category. Where was LL inspection during 17 yrs? Under my ream they sent agent twice, (it maybe different situation, because they only sent agent out, at time they tried to sale the premise on an auction for long lease over 100 yrs, less than two year after then sale to me, but their auction failed)

**distress** · 21st July 2017, 09:53:AM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

An other question is:

It looks like not less then 2 more months before the roof is repaired. I am so scared because the loss of my deposit to the renovation builder appears very eminently now.

Can the builder walks away? He said he wait since the 10/07 but can not put his workers on standby for longer without extra charge or for every "Very sorry but they have family to feed too"

I don't know what can I do now? is there anything I can talk or do with the builder... can they they really walk away?, after I have already paid half the work? And if they stay and wait what is the limit for extra charge.

**distress** · 21st July 2017, 10:33:AM

Re: Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

"If you are having problems about the building and the new level of rent is an issue, then it would seem logical to look for premises elsewhere rather than the potential for it to go down the drain."

Thank you for your thought but I can not walk away it is not a small van, 5K or 10K or 30K we talk about here.

Not that we doesn't make any money, where it makes sense one should walk away before too late, All my live saving all my finance are in here. We have turnover over 50K, 60K for years we pay rate tax rent cost punctually, But the cost creeps up every year 6, 8, 12% and now with 40% rent increase 40% Business rate in crease combined with the slum economy,, and the risk that Business Rate will be re-valuated and raised again soon with the new lease because it RV is only 31K5 while rent creeps up to 35K5 if we allowed it to go through. it is at impossible unsustainable level now. that is the problem.

if we let the business model stay like in the past, but we could survive if we open an other business opportunity. Hence I have already invest more money into the new business idea. Only now with the roof issue every chance is destroyed, the longer it stays not repaired.

We are not rich but at least we can survive and keep the hope one day economy would turn positive and we could get our effort repaid, get our money we have invested in the business returned. The only hope is stay and fight

Would you walk away if your over 100K 150K capital is involved, and you are not Richard Brandson, D. Trumpf or Warrent Buffet... I dont have that much money

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Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

Need urgent advise in a troublesome commercial tenancy

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