Cause of Action Discussion

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

O
It doesn't really need a thread.

Outright purchase = fixed sum loan, if it is just to by a particular item as itmeized on the contract it is restricted use, if it is just a sum of money which the debtor chooses to do what he likes with it is unrestricted.

HP/ conditional sale = "In practice this works with the retailer working as an agent on behalf of the creditor. The retailer or agent will supply the goods to the consumer but the title of the goods will be transferred to the creditor. The creditor will then pay the agent for the transfer of title. The consumer will be able to use the goods will they continue to make the periodic payments under the conditional sale agreement to the creditor. Once the final instalment has been paid by the consumer the title in the goods will pass from the creditor to the consumer".

As for the COA being the last acknowledgment Amethyst.
What about your credit card(which I am sure is up-to date and in credit). Was there a cause of action the last time you paid your bill ?

[Amethyst]

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

The bit on HP I have trouble with, is what are the payments after the 2/3rds of the 'purchase price', are they loan repayments ? On (some) HP once you have paid over 2/3rds you 'own' the car rather than 'hire' it.... so what are you paying, the hire must have turned into a loan at some point ? Hire.....Purchase ..... ?

[charharp]

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

As if Andy Einstein could help with explaining the difference between the different types of finance. No loan is made to the customer on HP.

amethyst that is true and I think this argument is moot anyway because I don't think a DCA would pursue court action 6 years after last payment no matter what the type of contract if you send them SB letter. Having paid 10-20% for the debt in the first place is it really worth them wasting time pursuing it on the off chance some irregularity may work in their favour. They could end up having to pay more in costs than they paid for the debt. Unless it's a very large debt they will just write it off as SB without much of a fight if it has been 6 years.

[Amethyst]

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

Thanks Andy. I think a new thread spelling out (for me as much as anyone else as I appear to have confused myself this evening reading this thread !) the difference between HP, Secured Loan, Car Finance?? and Unsecured Loan, with regards to purchasing and ownership of a vehicle would be really useful.

On the COA issue, I still consider it to be the date of the last acknowledgment of the debt (until I'm convinced otherwise of course)

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

I suppose thinking about this it does raise an interesting question.
If this were today the agreement would be regulated, as the limit is now gone for none business uses.
That means that the agreement would have been for all intents and purposes a fixed sum loan agreement as prescribed under section 9(3) of the act.
The default and termination requirements would have been those laid down in section 87 etc. So how would the fact that this is a HP agreement be different to a fixed sum loan, in short it wouldn't.

More interestingly would the same scenario regarding the COA occur ?

[jon1965]

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

Good lord, this thread really puts my day into perspective.

Never a dull moment

[pt2537]

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

Good lord, this thread really puts my day into perspective.

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

HP is not a loan secured on the car. If this was true Hart would have been the owner which he was not. You are unable to distinguish the differences between a loan secure on the car and HP.

Hart was the owner of the equity of the loan he had possession of the car. Is it really necessary for me to do a peter and Paul description of the way that HP works, I knew that we would end up having to explain the stuff virtually everyone else understands to you if you contributed to this thread, it is such a waste of time and energy because half of it you will never understand anyway.

If anyone else does not understand this, I will explain the way HP works, if it is just for you I am not willing, so you are back on ignore I am afraid.

Sorry Amethyst

[charharp]

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

Actually Charharp you know that is not true. The whole balance on an unsecured loan only becomes due when the contract says it becomes due.
Attached is a copy of some terms from a £15K unsecured loan, please note it says that they will demand full by giving notice in writing . Of course the CCA also says they have to default and terminate as well
[ATTACH=CONFIG]10524[/ATTACH]

Sorry for the poor quality it's all I have on my laptop at the mo.

Also if you look at the Halifax CCA you will notice that the early repayment can only be demanded IF documents required by the act are served

I appreciate there is a difference between a regulated and un regulated agreement but if I have read the judgement correctly the same basics apply

I said owed not due.

[jon1965]

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

If you took out an unsecured loan to buy the car the whole outstanding some is owed as soon as you buy the car and when you break that agreement by not making a payment that is the COA.

EDITED.....

Actually Charharp you know that is not true. The whole balance on an unsecured loan only becomes due when the contract says it becomes due.
Attached is a copy of some terms from a £15K unsecured loan, please note it says that they will demand full by giving notice in writing . Of course the CCA also says they have to default and terminate as well
Output.pdf

Sorry for the poor quality it's all I have on my laptop at the mo.

Also if you look at the Halifax CCA you will notice that the early repayment can only be demanded IF documents required by the act are served

I appreciate there is a difference between a regulated and un regulated agreement but if I have read the judgement correctly the same basics apply

[charharp]

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

HP is not a loan secured on the car. If this was true Hart would have been the owner which he was not. You are unable to distinguish the differences between a loan secure on the car and HP.

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

Do you understand now can we move on ?

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

No one has seen this as an issue, because it is not relevant, it is a contract for credit nothing more or less.

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

That's what I said in the first place EDIT. You can't get your head around the mechanism of hire purchase. The car is leased/rented until all of the payments are completed, so when a payment is missed this is not the COA because the whole outstanding sum is not owed at this point. It's only when the contract is terminated that all future payments become owed.

If you took out an unsecured loan to buy the car the whole outstanding some is owed as soon as you buy the car and when you break that agreement by not making a payment that is the COA.

EDIT....

I dealt in hire purchase professionally for some years.

The loan is secured on the vehicle it is for all purposes a fixed sum loan in fact if it would have been under 25k it would have been a regulated agreement and treated exactly the same way as a fixed sum loan.

The total credit is sent to the supplier, exactly the same way as a CDS restricted use loan under section 11 of the cca, the goods remain the property of the creditor until the repayments/hire charges are payed, at the end of the term a one-off payment is given this transfers ownership to the hirer.

The point is that the hirer is repaying a loan for the purchase of the vehicle. It is really very basic stuff.

[Amethyst]

Re: Cause of Action Discussion

charharp, you really do need to tone down the way you talk to people, it isn't very constructive, or condusive to getting your point across effectively. I'm going to go through and moderate the latest spate of insulting posts, if I do have to do it again, then you may be put on moderation so your posts can be checked before going live, which obviously stunts conversation somewhat, it's a pity and not something I do often, so please try and have the discussion in a slightly less aggressive manner....of course, this does go for anyone else hurling insults about the place too. Ta muchly xx