Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

[wales01man]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

YAWN!

[Openlaw15]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

If you do as suggested you will see why the OP does not want anymore to do with this matter!

Their children or friends could help them write the letter to the Parl. Ombudsman if the Op is not able to.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

Sorry this is very long, but it is complex.

My mother died in Scotland at the start of this year and had been in a nursing home for the 5 years before her death. She was entitled to have her nursing care paid because of her physical and mental condition but her accommodation costs all had to be paid. That is how it works in Scotland, Nursing Home fees are NOT Free in Scotland at all as some people in England seem to think.

She had very little in saving approx 2k but she did own her small house, therefore she was not entitled to have her fees paid as the house is counted as capital. The house would have to be sold or I would have to pay towards her fees, which I chose to do and so she was regarded as being self funding. I contacted DWP when I started looking for a place for her in a home explaining the situation and to find out what she was entitled to in benefits and pension. They were less than helpful and would not discuss with me because it was my mother's account and they insisted they speak to her. That very quickly made them realise this was pointless as she could not understand the conversation. I was then told that they could not discuss the amount of any of her benefits or pension with me, but what they could tell me (to enable me to work out how much I would need to contribute to her fees) was that because she was self funding she was entitled to continue to receive her current income from DWP. This as far as I know was her state pension, pension credit, mobility and I think attendance allowance. But it was all paid as one amount into her account every four weeks and as they would not tell me how it was made up it was really hard to be sure of what she was receiving other than the total amount.

However I took them at their word in good faith and found a place for her, most of my monthly salary for 5 years then went towards her fees and in total between her pension and benefits and my contribution there has been over 120k paid to the nursing home for her accommodation. Now DWP are saying she has been overpaid, I don't have a final figure yet but I cannot understand how she can possibly have been over paid when there was nothing in her bank and everything she had coming in went to pay her fees, including my salary for 5 years. As a family we have really struggled to meet this commitment and I am only beginning to catch up with my own debts such as credit cards to buy food while I was paying her fees. Now I am being told I could owe DWP around 30k or more and should sell the house to pay for it??

Members of our family with a disabled child live in the house, my mother before she lost her mental capacity, very specifically wanted them to have her house as it was already adapted for disability and they desperately needed suitable accommodation. The house was to be transferred to me when she died, but they would live there and pay rent. During the 5 years they contributed towards her fees in place of rent. This was how as a family we decided to manage her care rather than have to sell the house. Had we done that the govenment would have had to pay her fees when they money from the house ran out anyway, so infact we saved them a lot of money. We also provided a home for a family who were in urgent need, something the council were unable to do as they had no accommodation available and the family were living in a upper floor flat which made their life impossible.

What I cannot undertand is how after having paid out all this money to care for my mother and her having no savings I am now being asked to pay out again. It does not help that my mother who thought she was Lady Bountiful also left large legacies, which I am also having to pay. There is still the house, but I am not prepared to put a disabled child and family out of their home just because DWP suddenly decided that they have overpaid benefits.

I expect I will have to pay whatever it eventually comes to, although I will never in a million years believe their calculations, they specifically told me she was entitled to continue to receive her current benefits. But can they force the sale of the house to get immediate repayment or can I insist they agree a repayment schedule directly with me. It is more of a problem because I am not the executor, this is one of my mothers fairweather friends hanging in there because of the legacy!! Not around for the 5 years of fees of course. But to discharge the executors I need to accept liability for any DWP repayment no matter how large. I will not put a family out of their home, I will do anything within my power to stop that happening even if it means I need to work until I drop dead which as I am already past retirement age means I probably will. Does anyone know if I can refuse to allow the sale of the house to pay DWP and insist they accept payments I can afford?

This is illegal in the civil sense so in my view DWP abused their powers. Alternatively there was no overpayment as DWP agree to the payments continuing. It's a shame I wasn't here in Dec 2014 as the advice given to OP was not good. Didn't any of you think, they had permission to keep the payments on-going that it would be a red flag?? To be fair though, if you don't understand law in this type of situation it's easy to over-look.

[nemesis45]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

Nem, how about you state your point rather than I guess the point you're thinking of.

If you do as suggested you will see why the OP does not want anymore to do with this matter!

[Openlaw15]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

Read the OP's post openlaw!!

nem

Nem, how about you state your point rather than I guess the point you're thinking of.

[nemesis45]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

If the Parl. Ombudsman situation applies it could be over in less than 9 months, not years. It's a simple process, apply to MP and explain situation. Parl Ombudsman looks at DWP law and if DWP have made errors in law or in the Op's fact, they can have that decision looked at again. If any payments were taken illegally (in the civil sense, ie outside DWP's powers), said actions could be taken.

Read the OP's post openlaw!!

nem

[Openlaw15]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

Money could be claimed back? Yes if the OP wants years more of fighting as she says she has many other problems now I for one think if there was an easy way to get some back they would have been advised how to .

Sometimes in life us mere mortals five up for an easy life stress is not worth having

If the Parl. Ombudsman situation applies it could be over in less than 9 months, not years. It's a simple process, apply to MP and explain situation. Parl Ombudsman looks at DWP law and if DWP have made errors in law or in the Op's fact, they can have that decision looked at again. If any payments were taken illegally (in the civil sense, ie outside DWP's powers), said actions could be taken.

[wales01man]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

Money could be claimed back? Yes if the OP wants years more of fighting as she says she has many other problems now I for one think if there was an easy way to get some back they would have been advised how to .

Sometimes in life us mere mortals five up for an easy life stress is not worth having

[Openlaw15]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

Done and dusted OPENLAW think the OP wants no more of this

I don't know what her solicitor said about this DWP claim but I wouldn't have parted with a penny unless DWP could prove all the criteria I stated. It may not be done and dusted as if DWP has abused their powers, am not certain of this but through the Parliament Ombudsman DWP's actions could be investigated which may mean some of the money could be claimed back.

[wales01man]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

Done and dusted OPENLAW think the OP wants no more of this

[Openlaw15]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

Well I know this is a long time down the line from my original post, but I thought that I would update this with the final results of the process.

I had to pay DWP £27,460.00 it was as bad as I had anticipated. They refused completely to provide a breakdown just gave a total and said it was over payment of two benefits. The solicitor did lodge an appeal but it was refused and basically I was so stressed and tired out with it all I just wanted it paid and over with. They have now been paid in full, all the legacies have also been paid. I have worked night and day doing 2 jobs for the last 2 years to achieve this, I am exhausted and totally broke but the nightmare is over. Just a final bill to the Solicitor to pay and I can start to breathe again. Now I just need to pay all my own bills.

I am now 66 and have serious and very debilitating health problems, my husband is nearly 70 and recovering from prostate cancer. We don't see our retirement ever happening, it is going to take us years to recover. We have had between 3 parents, 8 years of top up fees for 2 after the money from the sale of their house ran out, then 5 years of full nursing home fees for 1 to pay. I still think this is such an injustice when people who don't own their property and don't have a large bank balance are not required to pay a penny towards their fees. I do think these people should have their fees paid, they need the care and I am not complaining about that. But I don't think that people like our parents with very little money who struggled all their lives to buy their homes should have to pay, just because they provided their own roof over their heads. It is completely wrong.

Our parents bought their homes because they were for whatever reason not entitled to a council house, they were not wealthy people, they just needed somewhere decent to live and bring up their families. My husband's parents were on a council housing list for over 30 years and never once were they offered a house, even when they were homeless in the 1950's with young children. They initially lived in lots of different rented flats, until they could not stand the constant uncertainty of never knowing when they would be out on the street again if the lease was not renewed. So during the 1960's they very nervously took a mortgage (that was a terrifying commitment for many back then) and bought their own flat, then lost it at the end of their lives to pay for their care.

There are a lot of injustices in this world and I know there are many people around the world much worse off than we are, but it does not alter my feelings about the unfairness of this system in the UK. However I just have to cope with my health problems and keep going to work every day. Yes I know I am fortunate to still have a job, but I would give it up right now and hand it all over to someone young, if only I had not been left now with my own debts to pay, which I have incurred while struggling to pay nursing homes and everything else that followed their deaths.

There is one thing I plan to make sure of and that is that my family have Power of Attorney for both of us. We never ever in a million years want to put our family through what we have been through with our parents and for me anyway I think a short stay in Switzerland will be carefully planned.

Thank you very much to everyone who read though and commented on my questions, it really helped me to sort out in my own mind what I needed to do and I have eventually succeeded.

I am so sorry for your situation. May I ask have you paid all of the virtually 30k to DWP in full? Did they have a right to that 30k? For instance, 1) DWP have to prove there has been an overpayment. 2) The overpayment must not be DWP claimant's fault. So an overpayment by claimant here would include failure to inform of a change in circumstance. If it was DWP's fault in part you could have challenged either part or all of the overpayment. It may alternatively have been fraud. 3) DWP, by law, has to prove you were overpaid to the exact detail and you had the right to request a break-down. However, no matter what DWP did not have the power to force you to sell the mother's family home and would have had to make a claim to local court like other alleged debtors. Alternatively, depending how bad your mother's health was and the time or at any point during her incapacity or when an LPA was appointed, she could have successfully argued she did not have capacity (mental functioning to deal with her personal affairs, ie money, assets) when the alleged overpayments were made.

[enaid]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

I can't thank you enough for updating us on this matter, I am though totally devastated at the way things have turned out for you and yours.
The DWP have a job to do, how they go about it though sometimes is beyond belief.
The do gooders who try to get all the benefits for the elderly are correct in what they do, sadly the elderly do not always own up to what they already have albeit intentionally or not. The 4 benefits you mentioned AA, mobility component and state pension are all allowed when you are self funding, the only one that could have been overpaid was pension credit, this can also be claimed if you fit the criteria.
If and when the money gets to a certain level (23k) or so now then reassessment should come in and as the money dwindles then the less you pay towards your care.
If a time came when your mum was LA funded then all those benefits should have either stopped or gone to the LA towards the funding.
Anyway I am waffling on and as we have just done exactly the same and placed MIL in a care home I have had to look at ways and means of sorting out the funding without losing her house. We are renting it out and with her benefits will just about cover the cost.

I do wish you a long, happy and healthy retirement when its happens and you are so right, get your will and LPAs sorted while you are able.
Good Luck and once again thanks for the update.
Enaid x

[iona]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

Well I know this is a long time down the line from my original post, but I thought that I would update this with the final results of the process.

I had to pay DWP £27,460.00 it was as bad as I had anticipated. They refused completely to provide a breakdown just gave a total and said it was over payment of two benefits. The solicitor did lodge an appeal but it was refused and basically I was so stressed and tired out with it all I just wanted it paid and over with. They have now been paid in full, all the legacies have also been paid. I have worked night and day doing 2 jobs for the last 2 years to achieve this, I am exhausted and totally broke but the nightmare is over. Just a final bill to the Solicitor to pay and I can start to breathe again. Now I just need to pay all my own bills.

I am now 66 and have serious and very debilitating health problems, my husband is nearly 70 and recovering from prostate cancer. We don't see our retirement ever happening, it is going to take us years to recover. We have had between 3 parents, 8 years of top up fees for 2 after the money from the sale of their house ran out, then 5 years of full nursing home fees for 1 to pay. I still think this is such an injustice when people who don't own their property and don't have a large bank balance are not required to pay a penny towards their fees. I do think these people should have their fees paid, they need the care and I am not complaining about that. But I don't think that people like our parents with very little money who struggled all their lives to buy their homes should have to pay, just because they provided their own roof over their heads. It is completely wrong.

Our parents bought their homes because they were for whatever reason not entitled to a council house, they were not wealthy people, they just needed somewhere decent to live and bring up their families. My husband's parents were on a council housing list for over 30 years and never once were they offered a house, even when they were homeless in the 1950's with young children. They initially lived in lots of different rented flats, until they could not stand the constant uncertainty of never knowing when they would be out on the street again if the lease was not renewed. So during the 1960's they very nervously took a mortgage (that was a terrifying commitment for many back then) and bought their own flat, then lost it at the end of their lives to pay for their care.

There are a lot of injustices in this world and I know there are many people around the world much worse off than we are, but it does not alter my feelings about the unfairness of this system in the UK. However I just have to cope with my health problems and keep going to work every day. Yes I know I am fortunate to still have a job, but I would give it up right now and hand it all over to someone young, if only I had not been left now with my own debts to pay, which I have incurred while struggling to pay nursing homes and everything else that followed their deaths.

There is one thing I plan to make sure of and that is that my family have Power of Attorney for both of us. We never ever in a million years want to put our family through what we have been through with our parents and for me anyway I think a short stay in Switzerland will be carefully planned.

Thank you very much to everyone who read though and commented on my questions, it really helped me to sort out in my own mind what I needed to do and I have eventually succeeded.

[nemesis45]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

If you believe and I think you do that the solicitor is acting unfairly report this to the Solicitors Regulation Authority.

[iona]

Re: Can DWP claim an overpayment from an estate when there is only a house

Thank you everyone you have been very helpful and I really appreciate the time you have taken to reply to me. It has helped me to sort out in my mind what I need to do. I will certainly ask for a complete breakdown from DWP of their calculations. I will not take anything as accurate until I check it all myself.

I have a complete record of every transaction and every payment I made for my mother so hopefully that will help when I do have to face sitting down and working my way through their calculations. Not a job I am looking forward to, but if I don't do that I will never be satisfied that what I am being asked to pay is correct. It's just not something I was expecting to be faced with, especially when there were so many people involved in all the assessments for my mother. I really do think that at least one of them should have realised there was something wrong with the amounts she was receiving.

As for contesting the will as someone mentioned, I can't face that and I doubt if it would be successful. I do think my mother's judgement was way off being sensible when she made the will, but that was not entirely abnormal for my mother it had just became worse with age. It is a mess I am going to have to work my way through and my own retirement has faded so far into the distance I think it will be a while before I see light at the end of the tunnel. As long as it is actually daylight and retirement and not another train coming.