outspoken vs abbey - *** SUCCESS ******

[scoobydoo]

Re: outspoken V abbey

watching with interest

Well done so far

scooby

[bloomingflower]

Re: outspoken V abbey

Hi Outspoken !

I have a feeling I know you too !! nice to see you here Outspoken! (but I wont blow your cover lmao )

I can only echo what Bud has just said.. please do read my letter regarding how to approach Abbey with your hardship claims... it may give you an idea of how to write yours.. start out by saying what your total household income is derived of .. and the same with your outgoings etc.. also clarify what arrears, debts and any outstanding bills you have, and anything that will help support your hardship claim., as you may be asked by Ronan to provide these as hard copy proof in which you will send to him by post.. you will see by my last post on my thread which stage im at after following this process. This was just after making one phone call to Ronan !..

There are other members on here who are also following same procedure.. and I expect there will be many more to follow - Ladidi has already done this and succeeded. Reading her thread on here is an inspiration to others who are in same situation.

I think TBH, most peoples hardship claims and personal finances/circumstances will differ from person to person. The letter you will send to Abbey will be personal to your own situation., not a 'template' as it were.


So... good luck with that Outspoken.. I hope you succeed in your plight..


Bf xx

[fuzzybrain]

Re: outspoken V abbey

Hiya

I have laready email Rona with a list of our financial stauts and the current situation we are facing. He seems to accept that we might fall under the hardship criteria, so it's a case of waiting for them to respond and then seeing where we go from there.

Am feeling very nervous about doing of all of this now, especially as this site's way is different from trhe others. I have a feeling I shall be screaming for help soon.....

[bloomingflower]

Re: outspoken V abbey

Hiya

I have laready email Rona with a list of our financial stauts and the current situation we are facing. He seems to accept that we might fall under the hardship criteria, so it's a case of waiting for them to respond and then seeing where we go from there.

Am feeling very nervous about doing of all of this now, especially as this site's way is different from trhe others. I have a feeling I shall be screaming for help soon.....

No worries Outspoken ! you will have all the help you need and everyone is very helpful on here ! you are not alone in your plight. so no need to feel nervous now. I was the same as you when I first started out over a year ago....and there is still so much more to learn from all sites.

So.. just hang in on there and wait for Ronan to get back to you.. and post up if you need to ask any more questions.

Bf xx

[TUTTSI]

Re: outspoken V abbey

Hiya

I have laready email Rona with a list of our financial stauts and the current situation we are facing. He seems to accept that we might fall under the hardship criteria, so it's a case of waiting for them to respond and then seeing where we go from there.

Am feeling very nervous about doing of all of this now, especially as this site's way is different from trhe others. I have a feeling I shall be screaming for help soon.....

In what way is this site different.....!!!! this site for me has been the most helpful of sites that I know and peeps here will give you all the help and encouragement that you need. If you read Ladidi' and Bloominflowers thread and indeed mine, I am in a similar boat to you and I too am going to try and get my charges back.

Good luck with your claim and just ask when in doubt someone will help you.

xxxxx

[fuzzybrain]

Re: outspoken V abbey

Different as in the method of thinking regrading CI interest and how interest is calculated. The previous site encouraged people to claim CI (compund) whereas the general thought one this site seems to indicate that 8% should be claimed. It's just getting my head around the differences and how this affects my court claim and what I need to do to sort this out.

Both sites have been extremely friendly and helpful and neither one is better than the other, it's just different methods of thinking

[bloomingflower]

Re: outspoken V abbey

Different as in the method of thinking regrading CI interest and how interest is calculated. The previous site encouraged people to claim CI (compund) whereas the general thought one this site seems to indicate that 8% should be claimed. It's just getting my head around the differences and how this affects my court claim and what I need to do to sort this out.

Both sites have been extremely friendly and helpful and neither one is better than the other, it's just different methods of thinking

I totally agree with what you just said outspoken !.. I was in same boat as you..and yes.. i know what site you are talking about, cos I too was encouraged to apply CI to my claims.. but this was a year ago.. things have changed dramatically over the last few months. People who claimed over a year ago (and before Test Case) were lucky enough to get their charges back without much effort, cos banks paid up, without a fight., without setting foot inside the courts. they didn't question anyones claims. they didn't even question the CI as for some peeps who claimed in 2005/2006 (on the other site)were lucky (if thats right word ) to get CI with their claims.

As we all know now.. things are very different in 2007/2008.( apart from hardship claims). the banks were now fighting back.. hence Test Case.. (cue OFT ! )

So.. yes.. I have thought long and hard over the last few weeks with regards to me and my O/Hs situation.. as it is not as it was over year ago.. our finances are truly in an awful mess.. and those charges have been a contribution towards that.

So.. I would rather be happy to claim the 8% stat int.. it makes sense, than to go in with all guns blazing trying to get CI..cos the banks wont pay this now.. if ever.. But im sure there may be a minority who are prepared to go into court (if/when stays lifted) and argue the CI..but TBH.. its a gamble I, myself would rather not take....

All you need do now is to prepare a new revised spready with the 8% calculations.. if this is what you wanna do.. and TBH.. this is the rate they will pay if you wanna claim under hardship terms..



Bf xx

[TUTTSI]

Re: outspoken V abbey

Different as in the method of thinking regrading CI interest and how interest is calculated. The previous site encouraged people to claim CI (compund) whereas the general thought one this site seems to indicate that 8% should be claimed. It's just getting my head around the differences and how this affects my court claim and what I need to do to sort this out.

Both sites have been extremely friendly and helpful and neither one is better than the other, it's just different methods of thinking

There were a couple of cases that I heard about on CAG last year that did not suceed in court. I still believe it is possible to claim C1 but the thinking and the case laws you use would have to be quite thorough and you would have to have read up on it big time and understand them. Sempra v Inland Revenue is a case which can be used with CI. I think the test case has just taken the slaes out of doing this way. It is at the end of the day your choice on how you proceed. All my cases that I won prior to the test case was on contractual rate of interest and not the statutory 8% and these all were paid in full. But having said that none of the banks wanted to come to court and show their hand.

There is also Compounded and Contractual interest as well!!

[Sapphire]

Re: outspoken V abbey

Hiya, I've just spoken with Budgie on the phone (and very nice it was too), he's asked me to tell you that he is out and about at the moment and will post of lots of information about CI and otherstuff for you later this evening. So don't worry you are being very well attended to hun. xxxxxxxxxxx

Oh and I agree with Tuttsi on her musings, everyone on this site is extremely supportive of each other, and will find that everyone will pop in here and lend their support along the way.

[travelgirl]

Re: outspoken V abbey

wow i have read your thread with interest ty
i am travelgirl, i too am with abbey well was and i am at the moment trying to claim just over three thousand
i have a thread hardship--travelgirl, abbey have admitted hardship but isnt paying out and the fos administrator has been acting on my behalve but ive said all along that whe agrees with the banks now after my last letter to abbey ronan. and inga and herself, heres her stupid reply (the letter is in my thread that i have sent to ronan)

Dear Mrs xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I refer to my most recent letter of 24 June 2008, our previous exchange of e-mails and your fax which I received today.

However, I am unsure as to whether or not you have sent this fax to me for information purposes - as it appears to be addressed to another organisation, or if you have sent it for me to respond to.

If the later, having carefully considered your latest comments contained in the fax, I still consider it unlikely that more investigation would result in a different outcome to that explained in previous correspondence.

However, if you disagree please contact us by 19 August to explain why you disagree and with any further evidence you would like to submit to support your position and your complaint will be reviewed.

If you have not responded by this date, I will assume that you are satisfied that your complaint about the charges applied to your account will remain on hold until the legal next-steps have been sorted out. You do not need to do anything else right now. We will be in touch with you when we have news to report.

Yours sincerely


Sandra Greene
Adjudicator

[Budgie]

Re: outspoken V abbey

Different as in the method of thinking regarding CI interest and how interest is calculated. The previous site encouraged people to claim CI (compund) whereas the general thought one this site seems to indicate that 8% should be claimed. It's just getting my head around the differences and how this affects my court claim and what I need to do to sort this out.

Some comments follow which will hopefully make things a bit clearer for you.


Not one Claimant, as far as I am aware, has actually been to Court, with a Bank charges or credit card claim, argued the case for compound interest as opposed to CPR section 69 simple interest and WON.
As far as I am aware one person, Halliday tried it and he lost, however the arguments that Halliday used in support of his claim for compound interest have now been superceded by those contained in the Sempra Metals judgment. So the possibility still exists that a Claimer will one day actually get the opportunity to argue this in front of a Judge and win the compound interest argument with respect to bank charge and credit card charge claims. You never know, it may even be me as I have a final hearing on 12th September to do exactly that for my Capital One claim.

All the "victories" that you may have read about so far where people have had claims paid out in full including compound interest are either claims where summary judgment has been awarded by the Court because the Defendant bank or credit card Company failed to follow required court procedure or where the Defendant Bank or Credit Card Company took a commercial decision to settle the claim in full rather than fight the claim in Court. In fact, in the good old days, before the test case announcement, the latter was normal. Defendant banks settled, in full, virtually as soon as someone filed a claim in court. Basically, because they did not wish to have to argue the penalty charge or UTCCR1999 aspects of the claim in front of a Judge.

Nearly all reclaiming sites, prior to the test case announcement and the Halliday judgment, appear to have had no set policy with regards to recommending that Claimers go for either section 69 interest or compound interest. They basically left it up to the Claimer to decide how they wanted to proceed, as the Banks were paying out anyway it didn’t really make any difference other than the fact that if a claimer was successful with a compound interest claim they would usually be paid more money by the Bank than they would have otherwise by claiming section 69 interest. Most reclaiming sites had different version of spreadsheets which could be used by Claimers to calculate either section 69 interest or compound interest and Claimers used which one they wished, modifying template letters and claim details to suit. One exception to this was RUC. That site had only one spreadsheet, a sort of compound interest version. My views regarding this spreadsheet are reasonably well known, the spreadsheet contains incorrect formulas which lead to the spreadsheet vastly overstating the interest portion of a claim. No other reclaiming sites compound interest spreadsheet calculates compound interest in the same way as the RUC version or calculates such a high an interest figure as the RUC spreadsheet, the difference on some claims for older historic charges can actually be many thousands of pounds. RUC did not have a section 69 interest spreadsheet, RUC claimers wishing to go for section 69 interest when filing a court claim usually just used the same compound interest spreadsheet and inputted an 8% interest rate, which is obviously an incorrect method of calculating section 69 interest. As you already know I was banned from the RUC site for questioning the validity of the RUC spreadsheet. My main reasons for doing this were that it was becoming obvious from various member posts on RUC and other reclaiming sites that the Banks and credit card companies were starting to query the interest portion of claims. I felt that there was a real risk that someone using the RUC spreadsheet faced the possibility of being accused by the Defendant bank of making a vexatious claim, being made an example of in Court and possibly totally losing their claim and maybe even having wasted costs awarded against them.

Moving on, after the test case announcement and the Halliday judgment most reclaiming sites appear to have adopted a policy of suggesting that Claimers only go for section 69 interest for Bank Charges claims and then either section 69 or compound interest on credit card charge claims. Personally, I do not actually agree with this policy. I feel that there is just as much justification for properly calculated compound interest on a bank charges claim as on a credit card claim. However, the recommendation of sites such as Legal Beagles, MSE, CAG and Penalty Charges appears to be that claimers should only go for section 69 interest on bank charges claims. RUC’s policy remains unclear at this stage although I understand that they may have recently or may shortly actually be removing the spreadsheet from the website.

So back to the original purpose of this post.

There appears to be an opportunity for people who are suffering financial hardship and meet the hardship criteria as defined in the updated FSA complaints handling waiver to get some assistance from the Bank that they are claiming against. This does not necessarily mean that the Bank will pay you back your charges immediately, they may take some other action such as refraining from applying any additional charges to the account or freezing the interest or simply offering some financial advice, or they may not agree that you are suffering financial hardship, according to the FSA criteria, and do nothing.

One exception to this appears to be Abbey who have recently paid some genuine financial hardship claimers part of their claims and the signs are hopeful that this may continue to be the case. Some Legal Beagles claimers are attempting the same approach with Abbey and also with other Banks and we eagerly await some news.

However, from everything we have seen so far and this is certainly the situation with Abbey, there appears to be absolutely no chance of getting a full or partial refund of charges if you attach compound interest to your financial hardship justification. So, in my view, the decision is quite simple, you just have to decide whether to proceed with your quest for settlement of your claims with Abbey, on financial hardship grounds with section 69 simple interest, or take a chance, do nothing now, wait for the end of the test case and then attempt to proceed with your claim, through the Court, on a compound interest basis.


By taking a chance I mean that the final resolution of the test case is quite likely to include recommendations for how outstanding claims should actually be settled. Firstly we have to actually get the right decision, which may take a year or two and if that eventual decision does go our way there will certainly be an interest component included, as this is also stipulated in the updated FSA waiver. However, this may or may not be a compound interest component. To be honest, it is quite likely that the recommendations will be for section 69 interest. However, it may well be that a compound interest element could be included, nobody knows. Either way you would not lose out because the updated FSA waiver protects your rights in this respect. However, bear in mind that if the eventual recommendations are for section 69 interest only there is no way you will ever win a court claim for compound interest on a bank charges claim.

I will post up some additional blurb on section 69 interest and compound interest shortly on a new thread.

Please shout if you require any further assistance.

Rgds Budgie

[scoobydoo]

Re: outspoken V abbey

travel girl

we have posted advice on your thread - For the moment as most people seem to be having success with Ronan at least looking at their cases then that would be your best next move,

[fuzzybrain]

Re: outspoken V abbey

Ok i'm shouting (extremely loudly at that!!) Please forgive the length and randomness of the post, but i've tried to list all the concerns that I have and the help i think i need (although I'm sure theere are loads of questions and help i need that I don't even yet know about!!)

--------------------------------------Claim history------------------------------------------------------------

I followed the advice given to me at the time and now I am in a thick bog and i'm not sure how to get myself out of the mire i am in. What do I do? I am waiting for Abbey to get back to me as they need to double check statements etc, which is fine, as I have included them all in the orginial court bundle and have a list of the charges done out separately)

I guess on the plus side, i am very lucky has i have managed to settle 3 claims prior to this with Abbey all at the 28.7% interest. However I accept that i was extremely lucky to get this and now need to put my exsisting claims in order - even if the claims aren't settled then it will really ease my mind and know that when the courts restart then I am starting off on the right foot. I have claims left in the court arena. 2 are at my local court, one is stayed at Northampton. All claims were done on line and when the claism were filed post copied of the POC, the spreadsheet, the list of charges and the statements were sent to the bank and MCOL via signed for post). I have asked Abbey to look at settling 2 of the claims under the hardship thingy - will look at tacking the 3rd one when i get over sorting this mess out, plus i have new charges which I don't know what to do about yet)

____________________POC and details of the 2 Claims_________________________


These are the orginial POC for the claim, with the amounts claimed

Claim 7QT16***

The Claimant holds acc no ********* with Defendant. From Oct 2002 to Dec 2002 Defendant debited charges iro of purported breaches of contract. Defendant has been supplied with list of charges and interest. Claimant contends: a-The charges exceed the Defendant's losses caused by such breaches; b-The Term permitting the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable under Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and at
Common Law. c-If charges are a fee for a service, then they must be reasonable under S.15 of Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. Section 32(b). Claimant claims: a- Return of amounts debited of £604; b- Interest of 28.7% - £4,395.98 as per Defendant's rate of interest; c-Interest under sec 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £1.10 All default notices to be removed.

This claim defended and the defence was filled on 6th July 07 and transferred to my local court, where it was stayed.

Claim 7QT22****

The Claimant holds acc no ******* with Defendant. From Dec 2002 to March 2005. Defendant debited charges iro of purported breaches of contract. Defendant has been supplied with list of charges and interest. Claimant contends: a-The charges exceed the Defendant's losses caused by such breaches; b-The Term permitting the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable under Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and at
Common Law. c-If charges are a fee for a service, then they must be reasonable under S.15 of Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. Section 32(b). Claimant claims: a- Return of amounts debited of £996; b- Interest of 28.7% - £3948.28 as per Defendant's rate of interest; c-Interest
under sec 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £1.09 All default notices to be removed. Costs allowed by the Court.

This was defended by Abbey on the 16th July 07 and has been transferred to my local court and stayed.

_________________________Questions and thought process______________________________

Thinking out loud (or writing out loud if that makes sense - plus you can follow my dribble of thought!!) I need to sort this interest thingy out and I would prefer to do this before Abbey get back to me. If i can approach them with a settlement offer that is more realistic than i first claimed then they maybe willing to go for it.

How do i do this? - do a new spreadsheet listing the charges total amoutn debitted that month and the date they were debitted?

What rate of interest do I use?

What do i do about Court interest and Court fees?

Sorry if the post doesn't make much sense - most of the time neither do I!!!!! Thanks for all your help in advance

[Paule]

Re: outspoken V abbey

So at present you have claims with include
A: the Charges
B: Contractural Interest @ 28.7%
C: Statutory Interst @ 8%

How do i do this? - do a new spreadsheet listing the charges total amoutn debitted that month and the date they were debitted?

Are you saying that you want to work out the total claims with just the 8% interest and not the 28.7%
If so, just use the basic spreadsheet and it will calculate that.

What was the reason for splitting all these claims up? I am presuming they all relate to the same account.

What rate of interest do I use?

Its up to you what interest rate to use, I dont advocate contractural rate, but others do.
Do you know allthe arguements for this, if you had to persuade a judge?

What do i do about Court interest and Court fees?

If you have filled at court, I would want any court fees and stat interst paid if they want to settle prior to the case being heard

If you want to change figures so that they will settle on that basis only, I think you will fail as there is no reason for the bank to do so as case are stayed.

I think you need to rethink at what you are trying to achieve here, as it seems to are just trying every route posible to get the money.

If you are in Hardship, stick to that and produce the reasons to to bank.

If you start chopping and changing things and giving the bank other options they will see thorugh it and you will get nowhere.

I dont want to sound harsh, but you need to be heading in one direction and not still changing your mind. Please think about what you want to do carefully
It not only confuses your own case, but makes it harder for people to advise and help you

PKea

[fuzzybrain]

Re: outspoken V abbey

So at present you have claims with include
A: the Charges - YES
B: Contractural Interest @ 28.7% YES
C: Statutory Interst @ 8% - I'm not sure what you mean by this. The only 8% interest I have claimed is court daily interest rate from the date the claim was filed with the court. The Contractual Interest was calculated up to ther date the first letter was sent to Abbey requesting a refund. No interest was claimed from point of first request of refund to the Court Claim. Fater claim was filed then i applied the court 8% daily interest rate on the sum I have claimed for.

Are you saying that you want to work out the total claims with just the 8% interest and not the 28.7% I'm not sure - what rate of interest should I use?

If so, just use the basic spreadsheet and it will calculate that. If I use the calculator what about the time difference. i.e, there is over a year between the case being stayed and the todays date, So what Do I do about this? Is the 8% different from the Court Stat 8% - I.e. is one (the interest on charges) compounded or are they both simple interest?

What was the reason for splitting all these claims up? I am presuming they all relate to the same account. I was told to by previous website in order to keep them in the small claims court (so i wouldn't risk being hit for costs and high fees etc. I was told to keep each claim under £5,000, so that's what I did.

Its up to you what interest rate to use, I dont advocate contractural rate, but others do.

Do you know all the arguements for this, if you had to persuade a judge?
Yes, Have a HUGE court bundle ready for battle (Budgie had helped with this previously) also when I went head to head with the NATWEST at court I had researched the case for it - that said i don't really want to go anywhere near a court room again so Abbey offer a fair settlement then I'll settle

If you have filled at court, I would want any court fees and stat interst paid if they want to settle prior to the case being heard. I guess once i've decided which interest rate to use then I can work out the Stat interest?

If you want to change figures so that they will settle on that basis only, I think you will fail as there is no reason for the bank to do so as case are stayed. I think I have to re look at the interest side of the claim if I am incorrect in applying Contractual Interest. I am claiming under the hardship rules - I believe I have fullfilled the criteria set out and Ronan has emailed me back and has not indicated that the hardship criteria is not applicable to my circumstances, just that he needs to go through the statements and check the charges and discuss a settlement figure with Abbey.

I think you need to rethink at what you are trying to achieve here, as it seems to are just trying every route posible to get the money.
That statement is unfair and quite harsh, espeically as you are not aware of my financial obligations or state of finanical affairs. I know what I am trying to achieve - the refund of my charges (including any fair and just interest that id due to me) I believe that I fit the hardship criteria and have evidence to prove this. as stated above, if my claim is incorrect then I want to know how to correct it and what difference that makes. I do not believe in claiming for the sake of claiming, nor am i trying to grasp anyway i can to get the money. I have waited patiently for over a year for my claim to restart and am only doign what this site advises - contact the bank to review your claim if you feel the hardship criteria applied to your personal circumstances, which in my case I am very sorry to admit they do. Being in financial hardship isn't something I am proud of, nor am trying every possible route to get the money. I would prefer not having to claim under hardship, but my bank account and financial commtiments do not allow me this piece of pride at present.

If you are in Hardship, stick to that and produce the reasons to to bank.
Which I have done. Ronan has questioned the rate of interest, which was why I posted the email and asked for others thought about it. It was then I was informed that I may have been mislead by another site in claiming the 28.7% and I have asked for advice on what I should do if this is the case.

If you start chopping and changing things and giving the bank other options they will see thorugh it and you will get nowhere.
I have not given the bank any options, nor have I chopped and change. I have asked for advice on what i should. I will not present any option to the bank until i know what their offer is and what the that offer is made up of (i.e charges, interest. inclusion of court fees etc) When I managed to sort out what the interest rpart of the claim should be thern i will be in an informed situation as to what my next corse of action should be. I am not chasing Abbey, my only correspondence regardign my claim is through this site at present and the 2 emails I have sent Ronan. One outline why I feel my claim should be considered under the hardship criteria and one offering to re send the statements and spreadsheet of charges etc through if that would assist.

I dont want to sound harsh, but you need to be heading in one direction and not still changing your mind. Please think about what you want to do carefully
It not only confuses your own case, but makes it harder for people to advise and help you.

The only confusion i am have I have if what rate of interest I shoudl have charged. I onlty sought avice when it was pointed out that 28%7 interest rate should not have been used. This is what i have sought helpon - why is that changign my mind and heading in different directions??? If others are confused then please let me know where the confusion lies and I will try my best to clear it up.


PKea

Have tried to answer the about (my bits are in green. I would welcome others thoughts on this as I feel PKea and i may be misreading each other