OFT Test Case on Bank Charges ......from House of Lords to Supreme Court

[natweststaffmember]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

Hold on a sec- you mean this whole outcome could be pending/delayed due to a press office manager type person away on holiday?? Thats just mad!

Billions of pounds on the line and millions of people sitting on thier hands because someone isnt in the office to release the dates for an announcement!! Again thats just flippen mad....

I keep banging my head on this issue but billions of pounds are not at stake for THIS judgement. Currently the "preliminary issues" is about whether bank charges can be assessed for fairness under UTCCR 1999. It is not about whether the charges are fair or unfair. The next stage of the case IS the most important.

[Budgie]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

Well said Natty !!

However, we are all eagerly awaiting this particular judgment as it is the next step along the road.

My money is still on the 19th for handing down !!!

[natweststaffmember]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

Well said Natty !!

However, we are all eagerly awaiting this particular judgment as it is the next step along the road.

My money is still on the 19th for handing down !!!

My money is on referral to the ECJ-----sorry everyone.

[EXC]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

My money is still on the 19th for handing down !!!

Me too but lets exercise a little caution as it's not beyond the realms of possibility that a forthcoming announcement will not say the date has been set and could advise that judgment is not expected until next year.

[stewie082]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

My money is on referral to the ECJ-----sorry everyone.

This would mean the FSA would again have to extend the stay for another 6 months or year? I dont think the FSA would be able to handle the fall-out from another extension.

I dont see that happening...This is the end of the road.

Yes yes, we all understand this court case is about the charges to be assessed for fairness under UTCCR. But I do believe this to be the end of the road for the banks and they will fold under public and political pressure.

Stewie

[natweststaffmember]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

This would mean the FSA would again have to extend the stay for another 6 months or year? I dont think the FSA would be able to handle the fall-out from another extension.

I dont see that happening...This is the end of the road.

Yes yes, we all understand this court case is about the charges to be assessed for fairness under UTCCR. But I do believe this to be the end of the road for the banks and they will fold under public and political pressure.

Stewie

Stewie, they would have to extend the waiver anyway and the complaint figures on the FSA Waiver and very unspectacular in spite of many public outbursts by some within the bank charges campaign.
I expect a further 2 extensions of the FSA Waiver to be honest until the final conclusion


"Duration
9. (1) This direction takes effect on 27 July 2009.
(2) This direction ends on the earlier of:
(a)
26 January 2010; or
(b)
resolution of the test case. For this purpose, resolution occurs when judgment has been entered in relation to all issues in dispute in the test case (including, for the avoidance of doubt, any issues which the Court agrees should in future be introduced into the case by way of amendment or otherwise) and the resulting orders either cannot be the subject of appeal or have not been the subject of appeal in circumstances where the time for doing so has expired, or when proceedings are otherwise discontinued.
However, provisions of this direction that are expressed to continue beyond its termination continue in force in accordance with their terms"

I know I seem to be picking up mostly on your points Stewie but it is important for everyone reading the thread to understand that we are likely to have more litigation and a renewal of the FSA waiver.

[Budgie]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

My money is on referral to the ECJ-----sorry everyone.

I think that if matters were going to be referred to the ECJ then an announcement to that effect would have already been released.

We had the news a couple of weeks ago ( post 594 this thread ) that Lord Phillips was nearly finished writing his judgment.

I don't think he would have been writing his judgment if matters were being referred to ECJ!

If matters were referred to ECJ the eventual judgment would still have to come from our Supreme Court so why would Lord P be writing a judgment two weeks ago?

[ROBSTER]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

Hold on a sec- you mean this whole outcome could be pending/delayed due to a press office manager type person away on holiday?? Thats just mad!

Billions of pounds on the line and millions of people sitting on thier hands because someone isnt in the office to release the dates for an announcement!! Again thats just flippen mad....

No, I mean the opposite. Sian would not have taken time off if there was any chance of the office being busy.

[EXC]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

Well whatever date the judgment is scheduled for it's likely that it won't be handed down before 4pm on the given day - as was the original OFT announcement of the test case and J Smith's first instance judgment - after the stock market has closed.

[Sapphire]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

Well I'm not getting involved with the 'she said, he said' stuff, or the depate on when, if, how or why.

All I'm going to do is keep my fingers, legs and everything else crossed for an excellent result in favour of us, the people of this realm.

[Budgie]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

Additionally, I do not see why the Supreme Court would need to refer preliminary test case matters to the ECJ.

In a previous ruling the ECJ have already ruled on the only likely matter in the test case that would be referred by the Supreme Court.

The ruling said that previous ECJ decisions indicated that courts had not only a right but a duty to assess terms on behalf of consumers.
"The nature and importance of the public interest underlying the protection which the Directive confers on consumers justify the national court being required to assess of its own motion whether a contractual term is unfair, compensating in this way for the imbalance which exists between the consumer and the seller or supplier," it said.
"The court seised [i.e. having ownership] of the action is therefore required to ensure the effectiveness of the protection intended to be given by the provisions of the Directive. Consequently, the role thus attributed to the national court by Community law in this area is not limited to a mere power to rule on the possible unfairness of a contractual term, but also consists of the obligation to examine that issue of its own motion," it said.

The ECJ did say, though, that it could not rule generally on whether a term was unfair, that national courts had to make decisions based on the facts of the case in hand.

Here is a link to the relevant European judgment http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bi...umaff=C-243/08

Basically, IMO any referral made to ECJ is going to be bounced back to the Supreme Court. If the ECJ are saying that they could not rule generally on whether a term is unfair and that national courts had to make decisions based on the facts of the case in hand then they are certainly going to say the same thing with regards to the question being covered in the first stage of the test case as to whether a particluar term or set of terms is subject to the relevent assessment under the directive in the first instance.

[davidl]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

Just a quick question for anyone with the time.
say the sup court say the terms can be assesed is it set in stone that the issue of what a fair charge might be will go back to court,or is there a possibility of the banks and the oft sorting this out without dragging it back through the looooong court system?

[EXC]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

"The nature and importance of the public interest underlying the protection which the Directive confers on consumers justify the national court being required to assess of its own motion whether a contractual term is unfair, compensating in this way for the imbalance which exists between the consumer and the seller or supplier," it said.

But wouldn't this only apply to the litigation of the substantive issues?

I've wondered about your bouncing back theory before - whether the entire case gets decided in the ECJ or if the Supreme Court refer a particular question to ECJ in order that the SC court can subsequently make their judgment.

But according to the HoLs judicial statistics for 2006 (the most recent available)

During 2006, two cases were referred to the Court of Justice of the European Communities for a ruling and two determinations were received

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/u...lStats2006.pdf

[Budgie]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

If the Supreme Court rule that the terms are assessable for fairness under UTCCR1999 then the court have an OBLIGATION to determine whether those terms are fair or unfair.

The determining of whether a term is unfair or not cannot be determined over a cup of coffee in Starbucks, it would have to be decided via a formal court process. So we would likely recommence stage 2 litigation back at the High Court with an initial action from the OFT seeking an injunction against the continued use of these terms by the banks and developing into some form of representative action on behalf of Consumers to determine "What a fair charge actually is" and to resolve matters such as Consumer redress and limitation.

Just a quick question for anyone with the time.
say the sup court say the terms can be assesed is it set in stone that the issue of what a fair charge might be will go back to court,or is there a possibility of the banks and the oft sorting this out without dragging it back through the looooong court system?

[omcornwall]

Re: OFT Test Case on Bank Charges update - Supreme Court Judgment coming soon !

BUDGIE

Sorry but me being a mere normal person without such knowledge on civil law as you. Please can you encode what you wrote in reply to davidl's post about banks and OFT sorting this matter out of court?

What does consumer redress and limitation mean?

Thanks