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Temporary living arrangement out of hand.

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  • npuk
    started a topic Temporary living arrangement out of hand.

    Temporary living arrangement out of hand.

    Its a long and convoluted story. My ex partner, we dated for about a year, moved in to my home with her child by a previous relationship, about three months after the end of our relationship. They moved in after being evicted by their landlord. She had started a new job and the agreement would be that she would stay a couple of months while she sorted herself out.

    Fast forward almost four years and she is still staying at my house. In that time our relationship has deteriorated significantly. She lost that job, and then a couple of others, and following a messy divorce \ child custody hearings with the father of her child, she has now been deemed to be suffering from PTSD / Anxiety related issues and is not working.

    During the time she has lived here, she has not paid any rent or contributed to the household bills / maintenance etc. We have split the purchase of groceries 50/50 on and off over this time.

    I have reached a point where I feel this is no longer acceptable to me. I have tolerated this situation for the sake of the child, and hoped she would move on off her own accord, but now wish to put this chapter behind me. She has nowhere to move and isn't working, though she has been accepted by the local authority for housing, but is very low priority. I have raised the matter with her and she has recently sought advice from council, who have suggested that she has 'tenancy rights' or 'lodgers rights' and that I cannot ask her to leave, and will need to evict her legally.

    Could you please advise where I stand on this matter?

    Kind Regards
    Tags: None

  • npuk
    replied
    Originally posted by jaguarsuk View Post

    She has no legal recourse because she is an excluded occupier, she can get all the legal aid in the world and I'm sure her solicitor will love racking up a bill sending you letters. When they do, simply post it here and I'll draft a response for you.



    You are correct, you can change the locks after the notice period and you can ask that she only returns with a police officer to recover her belongings or make arrangement for a neutral third party to attend to recover them. You cannot dispose of her belonging in anyway and you must ensure they aren't damaged or stolen to avoid falling foul of civil law.



    Just like she cannot apply for an order in the court nor can you, you are already in possession of your property and therefore you do not need to apply for a possession order.

    Apologies for the slow reply, I missed your post. Thank you for the advice, and your offer of further assistance. It is much appreciated. I will off course, keep you posted on progress. Fingers crossed, all goes smoothly.

    Thank you all, once again.

    Leave a comment:


  • jaguarsuk
    replied
    Originally posted by npuk View Post
    I am concerned that she may seek legal recourse. She was granted legal aid for the child custody hearings and she still has dealings with that solicitor, so I do not doubt that she will be seeking some advice.
    She has no legal recourse because she is an excluded occupier, she can get all the legal aid in the world and I'm sure her solicitor will love racking up a bill sending you letters. When they do, simply post it here and I'll draft a response for you.

    Originally posted by npuk View Post
    Also, I do worry that she won't move out after the time permitted, but as I understand it, I am fully within my rights to then change the locks at this point, and in doing so I cannot be held liable for any wrongdoing. If I am missing anything, please do let me know.
    You are correct, you can change the locks after the notice period and you can ask that she only returns with a police officer to recover her belongings or make arrangement for a neutral third party to attend to recover them. You cannot dispose of her belonging in anyway and you must ensure they aren't damaged or stolen to avoid falling foul of civil law.

    Originally posted by npuk View Post
    As an aside, I will seek some official legal guidance around preparing a possession order.

    Thank you all.
    Just like she cannot apply for an order in the court nor can you, you are already in possession of your property and therefore you do not need to apply for a possession order.

    Leave a comment:


  • npuk
    replied
    Originally posted by efpom View Post
    You are dealing with a person, who was given an inch, and has taken a mile! You must harden your heart, and put and end to being made a mug of!

    But, be very careful about your conduct, from this moment on.

    The last place you need is to be, is on the receiving end of an Order, whereby you go and she stays.

    If you wish to go the DIY route, and I do not encourage that, then you, in the presence of one or more reliable witnesses, who stay with you throughout, verbally tell her to leave immediately, back that up with a written notice to immediately quit - (preferably written by a solicitor firm, addressed to her, but with no address, certainly not yours).

    Give her no more than a couple of hours to pack essentials for a couple of days, and tell her she will be permitted, no later than 7 days later, to pick up the remainder of her stuff. If you can film all until she leaves, so much the better, and at the first hint of her rearing up, ask the police to attend.

    This will then go one of two ways:

    Either she will leave, because she has no stomach for the fight, or she will obtain professional advice to argue that a) she paid you rent, or b) that you received services from her in lieu of rent.

    It seems to me that because you have previously asked her to leave, but her response was to obtain advice from the local authorities to the effect that she may have tenancy or lodger rights, I believe it more likely than not, that upon her receipt of a notice to quit from you, however itís done, she will obtain professional advice, and, indeed may have already done so

    You know this woman better than anyone on here, so it is for you to ask the question of yourself whether if served with a notice to quit, she will go, or refuse to go.

    If the latter, then you have no choice but to apply for an Order of the court compelling her to go,. So, why not arm yourself with that first, particularly as you have already asked her to leave,(and, I suspect, not for the first time) and she has not done so.
    Thank you for the reply. I agree she has taken advantage, and as much as I realise I'm my worst own enemy, I cannot bring myself to give her 7 days notice. If nothing else, then for the sake of the child. I will be giving her the 30 days mentioned earlier. If she hasn't resolved the matter by then, I at least know I have done all I can for her. But, once again, thank you for comments, I do appreciate them.

    I am concerned that she may seek legal recourse. She was granted legal aid for the child custody hearings and she still has dealings with that solicitor, so I do not doubt that she will be seeking some advice. It does concern me, but I don't believe I have done anything that can be held against me. Though our relationship is at its worst, we barely speak one to one, I am still courteous around her and the child. We tend not to spend much time around each other most days. This is the main reason I am posting here.

    Also, I do worry that she won't move out after the time permitted, but as I understand it, I am fully within my rights to then change the locks at this point, and in doing so I cannot be held liable for any wrongdoing. If I am missing anything, please do let me know.

    As an aside, I will seek some official legal guidance around preparing a possession order.

    Thank you all.

    Leave a comment:


  • npuk
    replied
    Originally posted by jaguarsuk View Post

    No, you do not need to go to court to evict an excluded occupier and therefore you do not need a solicitor to write you letter.

    You simply need to cover the pertinent points:
    1. The original invitation to stay at your home was intended to be short term and only ever temporary
    2. As an excluded occupier meaning person living with family or friends while not being a tenant or owner and not paying rent you are giving notice she must leave.
    3. The date she must leave by is (30 days from date of letter

    Thank you, I will follow up with the letter this week, and make sure the above points are included.

    Many Thanks

    Leave a comment:


  • efpom
    replied
    You are dealing with a person, who was given an inch, and has taken a mile! You must harden your heart, and put and end to being made a mug of!

    But, be very careful about your conduct, from this moment on.

    The last place you need is to be, is on the receiving end of an Order, whereby you go and she stays.

    If you wish to go the DIY route, and I do not encourage that, then you, in the presence of one or more reliable witnesses, who stay with you throughout, verbally tell her to leave immediately, back that up with a written notice to immediately quit - (preferably written by a solicitor firm, addressed to her, but with no address, certainly not yours).

    Give her no more than a couple of hours to pack essentials for a couple of days, and tell her she will be permitted, no later than 7 days later, to pick up the remainder of her stuff. If you can film all until she leaves, so much the better, and at the first hint of her rearing up, ask the police to attend.

    This will then go one of two ways:

    Either she will leave, because she has no stomach for the fight, or she will obtain professional advice to argue that a) she paid you rent, or b) that you received services from her in lieu of rent.

    It seems to me that because you have previously asked her to leave, but her response was to obtain advice from the local authorities to the effect that she may have tenancy or lodger rights, I believe it more likely than not, that upon her receipt of a notice to quit from you, however itís done, she will obtain professional advice, and, indeed may have already done so

    You know this woman better than anyone on here, so it is for you to ask the question of yourself whether if served with a notice to quit, she will go, or refuse to go.

    If the latter, then you have no choice but to apply for an Order of the court compelling her to go,. So, why not arm yourself with that first, particularly as you have already asked her to leave,(and, I suspect, not for the first time) and she has not done so.
    Last edited by efpom; 16th May 2019, 16:55:PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • jaguarsuk
    replied
    Originally posted by npuk View Post

    Thank you for the detailed reply. I shall now draw up a letter asking her to move out. In consideration of the child, I was thinking of allowing her 30 days, which should be plenty of time to put things in order, and arrange something else. At least seek some assistance and support. Would you consider it necessary to involve solicitors at this stage with regards to the letter asking her to leave?

    Many Thanks
    No, you do not need to go to court to evict an excluded occupier and therefore you do not need a solicitor to write you letter.

    You simply need to cover the pertinent points:
    1. The original invitation to stay at your home was intended to be short term and only ever temporary
    2. As an excluded occupier meaning person living with family or friends while not being a tenant or owner and not paying rent you are giving notice she must leave.
    3. The date she must leave by is (30 days from date of letter

    Leave a comment:


  • npuk
    replied
    Originally posted by efpom View Post
    Just to clarify - I understand from your writing, that your relationship ended 3 months BEFORE you invited her to stay in your home and that invitation was prompted by her eviction from the dwelling she occupied, prior to that invitation. Is my understanding correct?
    Yes, correct. We had split up several months before she was evicted. She found out about the eviction after, and her original plan was to move cities to go and stay with family. However, she was offered a new job in this city, which is when she asked, a couple of weeks before she was evicted, if she could stay for a 'couple of months'. I agreed on the basis that it would be a couple of months, but clearly that didn't play out how I had intended. Does this change anything?

    Leave a comment:


  • npuk
    replied
    Originally posted by jaguarsuk View Post
    Your ex, now lodger is what is known as an excluded occupier due to living with family or friends while not being a tenant or owner and not paying rent.

    You can evict an excluded occupier by giving notice, which doesn't have to be written although it is better in writing and best practice says that notice should be at least 7 days.

    If ignored you do not have to get a court order to evict an excluded occupier and can simply change the locks to prevent entry.

    If you know the time she will return home after changing the locks it would probably be a good idea to ring 101 and arrange for the Police to be in attendance in order to prevent a possible breach of the peace. Ask the officer to accompany her and her child to collect enough belongings plus any medication or other essentials to allow her to subsist until she is able to collect the remainder of her possessions in order to prevent her entering and refusing the leave the property.

    Do not throw or place her remaining belongings outside of the property as you would be liable for any damage or lost/stolen property. At a later date you should arrange with her the collection of the remainder of her possessions. If it were me I would pack them, so she does not have to enter the property and photograph everything I pack as I go along to ensure she cannot say you damaged or did not give her any individual items.

    Shelter detail here: http://england.shelter.org.uk/housin...uded_occupiers
    Thank you for the detailed reply. I shall now draw up a letter asking her to move out. In consideration of the child, I was thinking of allowing her 30 days, which should be plenty of time to put things in order, and arrange something else. At least seek some assistance and support. Would you consider it necessary to involve solicitors at this stage with regards to the letter asking her to leave?

    Many Thanks

    Leave a comment:


  • npuk
    replied
    Thank you, I've seen some of these but wasn't sure how I stood, considering the length of time she has been staying here, and also after the advice she received suggesting that I would need to have her formally evicted.

    Leave a comment:


  • efpom
    replied
    Just to clarify - I understand from your writing, that your relationship ended 3 months BEFORE you invited her to stay in your home and that invitation was prompted by her eviction from the dwelling she occupied, prior to that invitation. Is my understanding correct?

    Leave a comment:


  • jaguarsuk
    replied

    Your ex, now lodger is what is known as an excluded occupier due to living with family or friends while not being a tenant or owner and not paying rent.

    You can evict an excluded occupier by giving notice, which doesn't have to be written although it is better in writing and best practice says that notice should be at least 7 days.

    If ignored you do not have to get a court order to evict an excluded occupier and can simply change the locks to prevent entry.

    If you know the time she will return home after changing the locks it would probably be a good idea to ring 101 and arrange for the Police to be in attendance in order to prevent a possible breach of the peace. Ask the officer to accompany her and her child to collect enough belongings plus any medication or other essentials to allow her to subsist until she is able to collect the remainder of her possessions in order to prevent her entering and refusing the leave the property.

    Do not throw or place her remaining belongings outside of the property as you would be liable for any damage or lost/stolen property. At a later date you should arrange with her the collection of the remainder of her possessions. If it were me I would pack them, so she does not have to enter the property and photograph everything I pack as I go along to ensure she cannot say you damaged or did not give her any individual items.

    Shelter detail here: http://england.shelter.org.uk/housin...uded_occupiers

    Leave a comment:


  • Setmefree3
    replied
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/fa...ake-you-leave/

    https://scotland.shelter.org.uk/get_..._partner_leave

    Leave a comment:


  • efpom
    replied
    My purpose in my post was to clarify the position, from a legal perspective, insofar as my analysis of the facts you describe

    Unfortunately, I am not informed enough on the detail of what Order or Injunction should be applied for by you, if having served on her a notice whose gist is "You are a guest in my home, I no longer want you to be a guest in my home, so, you must leave on or before - date" and she does not go.

    Perhaps, others on this board would be better able to answer that.

    It may be relevant, if you, yourself, are renting your home, as your tenancy agreement may limit occupation of the dwelling, to the tenant and his family only.

    Leave a comment:


  • npuk
    replied
    Originally posted by efpom View Post
    She cannot be your tenant, because she does not and never has, paid rent.
    For the same reason, she cannot be a lodger.
    For the same reason, she cannot be a licencee.

    So, the only basis on which she can occupy the property is as your guest.

    The fact that you may have split the grocer bill 50/50 is probably not relevant, as you have no obligation to feed either her or her child.

    I suggest you set a date on which you require her to leave, record that in writing to her and serve it on her. Ensure you have a witness, both to service and content.

    It might be worthwhile employing a solicitor firm to do that.

    After that date has passed, she is a trespasser.
    Unfortunately, trespass is a civil matter, so if she does not go voluntarily, your only option is to apply to the court, for an Order compelling her to leave.

    Thank you for your prompt and comprehensive response, This is much appreciated. Are you able to provide some more information or simply the name of the process I would need to follow/ the name of the court order, if she were to refuse to leave? Is this what would be termed 'Possession order'?

    Many Thanks

    Leave a comment:

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