Redundant job - union or independent solicitor?

[ULA]

It is not about the band a person is on being the same as other staff, that decides whether they should be in the selection pool for redundancy.

When selecting a redundancy pool the company needs to decide on what kinds of roles are disappearing and who are the people undertaking those roles. Where there is a clear link between the role and the person, then they will be placed in the selection pool.

Other factors which may be taken into consideration are:
- the extenr to which other employees are doing work of a similar nature;
- the extent that employees' jobs are interchangeable.

An employer will need to demonstrate that it has genuinely and reasonably applied its thoughts to what group of employees should form the selection pool and why. If challenged a tribunal will consider the reasonableness of the decision i.e. whether the pool selected was within the range of reasonable responses.

[Monday]

Thanks, that helps.

The work is not redundant. Some work previously done exclusively by my daughter has been taken away from her and given to someone (at the time a new employee) two pay grades higher.

Over the last few months the employer has engaged nine employees at one grade higher. Since my daughter and her colleague were put on notice of redundancy, the most recent two of the nine started work (2 and 3 weeks ago) and are being trained to do my daughter's work.

[ULA]

You have referred to the work in your last post but in a redundancy situation it is about the roles. Work / tasks can still continue but may be moved to other roles. This tends to happen when a company restructures its operations.

[Monday]

Thanks again.

So it looks like its a genuine redundancy that seems to have been planned since probably summer 2023' when staff were first notified that different departments were being merged and her being given a new role that didn't actually exist other than on paper.

This leaves the possibility of unfair dismissal based on lack of training, her being treated differently than others, isolation from the team, a whistle blowing situation, personal dislike and bullying from her line manager (who himself left the organisation four months ago), the employer not following ACAS procedure or procedure about applying for other jobs etc. The timeline since summer 2023 makes interesting reading.

She'll be back in the country at the end of the week, she'll have to decide about how to proceed.

Thanks again, I appreciate your input

[ULA]

You are very welcome.

If your daughter has further questions on her return, then just post them on this thread.

[Monday]

I would be grateful for more help please,

My daughter received her formal notice of redundancy on 4 April, has five days to appeal.

1 - Reason for redundancy: "the role you were in will no longer exist". The role is not identified but she is a Project Planner.

The firm's forward planning booklet informs that two band 7's will no longer be required because of " reduction in admin". The two band 7's are Project Planners although their work is not identical.

Is it worth pursuing the ambiguity between what her role actually is and the difference between that and the policy booklet reason for redundancy? Her job description does not specify admin but specifies work that is that of a Project Planner.

2 - Also during the past year she has complained about lack of training (which cost her promotion to the next band, band 6), band 6's getting training which has been denied to band 7's.

Is the lack of training discrimination?

And the multiple new band 6's who have recently been engaged ( and will do her work) are all much younger males. Again, discrimination?

3 - There is reason to suppose that eventual redundancy of the two band 7 jobs was pre planned (and apparently manipulated by withholding training and introducing other demeaning work) in summer 2023 or before that.

Is this something to bring into the appeal or should it be left for a tribunal?

4 - A new band 6, who started in August 2024, for a time constantly referred to her as "the office junior". (She has worked for the firm for seven years)


The derogatory and demeaning reference to "the office junior'" must surely reflect an opinion from someone of a higher grade that has been repeated to a then new employee.

Is this something that should form part of an appeal or is it best left to an actual tribunal?

Thank you,

[Monday]

In appealing a redundancy decision, could she (or anyone else in this position) ask:
if her appeal is successful, instead of being reinstated in her old job can she be moved into another department and also be paid compensation?

[ULA]

Post #21

In answer to your 4 questions, I can respond a follows, however on a general level I would always suggest that if your daughter is considering she has a potential claim then issues she wants to raise in that claim should be present in her appeal. If not, she may find herself being asked in any hearing by the Employment Tribunal (ET) why she had not raised the issues as part of any appeal process and thereby giving her employer the opportunity to try to investigate / resolve issue at that point.

1. It might be considered good practice that a reference to the job roles, by way of maybe the job title of the positions under threat of redundancy, are set out in any written correspondence but it is not essential. If your daughter feels that there is a lack of understanding of the job role and incorrect "generic labelling" is being given then make the point, particularly if it is a question of casting doubt on whether the positions are actually redundant. However I hope that she has raised this in previous consultation meetings and the appeal is referring back to those points already raised.

2. Lack of training again of itself is not discriminatory unless she can prove it is because of a protected characteristic.

3 & 4 I will refer you back to my general point about bringing in issues at the appeals point that she wishes to bring a claim on.

However if considering any potential claim your daughter is going to have to consider what is the employment legislation that the company has broken

Post #22

If your daughter's appeal is successful, the usual outcome is reinstatement to the previous role, as this restores the employment contract to its original state. However, if she would prefer to be moved to another department, she can discuss this with her employer during the appeal process but they are not obliged to do so.

As for compensation, this is less common in redundancy appeals. Compensation might be considered if there were procedural errors or unfair treatment during the redundancy process but the employer is unlikely to admit this was the case.

[Monday]

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply

There is a lot that I havent been able to tell you about because of the sheer volume of work that has kept the two of us busy since February, when redundancy was first mooted. It seems as though redundancy was pre planned in summer 2023 or maybe earlier and, given that it was in the pipeline all that time, explains a number of issues that have arisen throughout the past 15 months. It has often been overwhelming working through all the issues and trying to identify what may be significant or otherwise.

Clearly you approach redundancy from a professional viewpoint and i am grateful that you have taken the time to explain points to me. My daughter thinks that she should appeal but whether she wants to continue to work for this firm is another matter. Only yesterday, a new employee of a higher grade remarked "what do you know about it anyway", to which she was able to reply "eight years experience that you don't have" and today it has come to light that the workload of the other redundant person consists of seven admin tasks whilst the workload of my daughter consists of 38 project tasks and five admin tasks with which she was asked to assist the other!

I have explained to her that she needs to put everything in her appeal. I am so grateful that you explained this as she might otherwise have put only selective issues (there is simply so much of it).

thanks again

[ULA]

I would caveat putting everything into the appeal letter that is should not end up being pages and pages long.

Any ET claim for unfair redundancy dismissal would need to be made on the basis of the redundancy process or decision not being handled fairly or lawfully. It should be these points that form the basis of her appeal. I completely understand that often, when faced with this situation people want to set out every injustice they felt was done and this case, from what you have posted the last 15 months. However it needs to relate back to the redundancy process or decision and whether it was fair and lawful.

[Monday]

Thank you, she has done her appeal, two pages, bullet points.

Her work isnt redundant, has been passed to new employees of a higher grade and her grade is being abolished. She has been given no genuine reason for the redundancy and it became clear that she had been in any case doing the higher grade work for the past year but being paid at a lower rate.

Hers is specialist work and she is hopeful of finding a new job within the same field.

Thank you so much for helping to clarify the issues.

[Monday]

from what you have posted the last 15 months.

The last 15 months started with no work and ended with no job. Perhaps she should have seen this coming.

[Monday]

An update, just ventingl

Part of daughter's role was to analyse and report on time sheet statistics. She did this successfully for 6.5 years until last summer, when it was given to a band 5 (daughter is band 7) and the dept head noted in the forward planning that "reporting and emails are now fully automated, admin much lessened and two band 7's will be made redundant".

This week it came to attention via the head of the organisation that in the 9 months since this particular part of the job was given to the band5 manager, this has lost the organisation £800,000. Yes, eight hundred thousand pounds!!!!!

[ULA]

Just wanted to acknowledge your "vent".

[Monday]

Sorry to open this up again but......

Two females in a mixed team of 20-25 were made redundant. A manager has now disclosed that the union were consulted and signed off on the redundancies. Those redundant had been taking advice from their union representatives (not always good or even accurate). Could this now be considered a conflict of interest on the part of the union?

Since the redundancy process started, the employer has continued to take on new employees. In the last few months six new young males whose roles overlap with the role previously undertaken by one of those redundant. In the last year, ten or more, all younger males, all the same grade and all doing work that overlaps with one of the redundant female personnel. Is it worth making a grievance about possible indirect discrimination, especially given the age of those redundant and that the existing males are doing the interviewing and are seemingly selecting clones of themselves (in the case of the newest employee, an actual friend of one whose employment commenced early this year).

One of the redundant personnel has appealed against her redundance. The employer has not yet considered her appeal but has instead put the matter in the hands of their head of legal department.

This person knows she has to instruct her own employment solicitor but at the moment this entire situation has made her so.ill and disfunctional that she cant cope.