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Invited to a disciplinary

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  • NoPaddle
    started a topic Invited to a disciplinary

    Invited to a disciplinary

    I am a tutor at a local college. I was recently suspended because the collage said they had a couple of complaints from students, but then they only dealt with one complaint from one student. The one student alleged that I called them a retard during a lesson, which I did not.

    The first investigation didnt tell me what the complaint was about, but my line manager had already told me beforehand. I was told at the investigation that a student had given their account of a particular lesson, and I was then asked to give my account of that lesson which was a few weeks prior. Based on what my line manager had told me, my account included that another student had referred to themselves as a retard and did so on several previous occasions.

    There was a further investigation meeting with me. That wasnt interested in the initial allegation, it was mainly concerning the other student referring to themself as a retard and why I didnt stop it. Then the investigator brought up something from last year that she had been aware of for some time but never dealt with, again it was related to what a student had said, this time during some training session. The investigator then told me this could be a link to repetitive behaviour on my part. It felt like the investigator was just gathering evidence against me and trying to make links to use against me.

    The disciplinary invite letter is regarding two alleged breaches of conduct, and the issues from both investigations are cited as reasons 'linked' to the breaches of conduct, but no investigation notes, statements or evidence establishing those issues as fact have been given to me. All they have given me are copies of the notes of the meeting they held with me, and copies of code of conduct, disciplinary procedures and harassment policy.

    Can I request copies of all the complaints they are relying on, and copies of all related investigation notes, and all the evidence they are relying on; because I suspect they havent conducted a proper investigation, havent got any evidence, and are simply jumping to conclusions and trying to find any little thing to support the allegations. Are there any other documents I should ask for? Thanks in advance
    Tags: None

  • ULA
    replied
    When you are asked to exchange the documents that you wish to rely on to support your claim with the respondent, who will likely be responsible for compiling the final hearing bundle, then you can submit the report to them for inclusion.

    Leave a comment:


  • NoPaddle
    replied
    After I was put on suspension, I requested all communications between the college and LADO (who are responsible for managing allegations against adults who work with children). The college refused to give me anything and told me that LADO had advised them to follow their own internal procedures.

    I then put in a subject access request to LADO for the same information. I've only just this week got their response.

    It doesn't state what the college actually told LADO, but from LADO's answers I can conclude the the college either claim I called a student the r-word or allege that I did.

    LADO told the college that:

    * In terms of harm to a child I do not see that threshold having been reached
    * The potential target of the comment has not raised the matter as an allegation
    * The complainant does not appear to be raising the matter as a crime
    * In my opinion this has not reached the criminal threshold
    * no actual harm has been caused to a child
    * If neither child/parents want the matter referred to the police, then it falls on the school to carry out an internal investigation to an outcome as they see fit
    * I note the staff member has been suspended but you can ask him for "an account" to be fair to him or have you done that already as you should do "before" suspension.

    And that is if I actually did call a student the r-word; which I didn't.

    I was suspended before they even got the LADO report.

    Surprise surprise none of this was referred to the police because it didn't happen, and none of those making the accusations wanted to take the risk of making a false report to the police!!!

    This would have been handy to have when writing my ET1.

    At what point can I introduce the LADO response as evidence?


    I've not had the tribunal pre-hearing yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • Benny8902
    replied
    Originally posted by NoPaddle View Post
    The solicitor has not responded to all the claims I made in the ET1 form. What he has done is respond to a few then stated 'Any failure to respond should not be taken as an admission'.

    That's all very well and good for him but, as far as I am concerned, failure to respond to a particular claim will be taken as not challenging the claim and therefore the claim being true. Don't know if a tribunal will see it that way, or will respondent be allowed to challenge claims at tribunal which they failed to challenge at ET3 stage?

    Regarding the ET3 form; all the solicitor has written in the ET3 form are their contact details, nothing else. A document was attached to the ET3 form containing the grounds for resistance but, nothing on the ET3 form itself tells you it was attached or tells you to refer to it. A technical issue I agree but can they rely on the attached document if there is no mention of it in the actual ET3 form?
    Standard statement most solicitors make. Wouldn't worry about that at all. It will be a matter for evidence and cross examination as stated before.

    And yes that's how it works they sent in ET3 and attach their grounds of resistance to it, doesn't matter if they don't say "See attached" its still normal and tribunal won't really comment on it

    Leave a comment:


  • Benny8902
    replied
    Originally posted by NoPaddle View Post

    All the inaccuracies were written by a solicitor in what I believe is an attempt to mislead a tribunal. Can I report the solicitor to the SRA?
    No. ET3 are always full of a pack of lies. You have other opportunities to deal with the Respondent at a later date.

    If you look at case law taking the approach of complaining to SRA looks very bad on you.

    Leave a comment:


  • NoPaddle
    replied
    The solicitor has not responded to all the claims I made in the ET1 form. What he has done is respond to a few then stated 'Any failure to respond should not be taken as an admission'.

    That's all very well and good for him but, as far as I am concerned, failure to respond to a particular claim will be taken as not challenging the claim and therefore the claim being true. Don't know if a tribunal will see it that way, or will respondent be allowed to challenge claims at tribunal which they failed to challenge at ET3 stage?

    Regarding the ET3 form; all the solicitor has written in the ET3 form are their contact details, nothing else. A document was attached to the ET3 form containing the grounds for resistance but, nothing on the ET3 form itself tells you it was attached or tells you to refer to it. A technical issue I agree but can they rely on the attached document if there is no mention of it in the actual ET3 form?

    Leave a comment:


  • NoPaddle
    replied
    Originally posted by Benny8902 View Post


    Leave their inaccuracies.

    It wouldnt be within the 'overriding objective' to email the tribunal. And when you think about it - them asserting inaccuracies when you have "evidence" or whatever then it makes them look bad. You can address those points at substantive hearing, by means of witness statement, evidence, or during cross-examination.
    All the inaccuracies were written by a solicitor in what I believe is an attempt to mislead a tribunal. Can I report the solicitor to the SRA?

    Leave a comment:


  • Benny8902
    replied
    Originally posted by NoPaddle View Post
    They deny everything yet inadvertently make several statements that support my case.

    Their ET3 form is full of inaccuracies eg they claim that I admitted to the allegation, which I did not. They claim that I made multiple threats of legal action against them, which i did not; in fact i pointed out multiple times they were in breach of employment law and informed them of the consequences should it go to tribunal. Do I just leave these inaccuracies now and address them at tribunal, or do i contact the tribunal and list them all?

    Leave their inaccuracies.

    It wouldnt be within the 'overriding objective' to email the tribunal. And when you think about it - them asserting inaccuracies when you have "evidence" or whatever then it makes them look bad. You can address those points at substantive hearing, by means of witness statement, evidence, or during cross-examination.

    Leave a comment:


  • NoPaddle
    replied
    They deny everything yet inadvertently make several statements that support my case.

    Their ET3 form is full of inaccuracies eg they claim that I admitted to the allegation, which I did not. They claim that I made multiple threats of legal action against them, which i did not; in fact i pointed out multiple times they were in breach of employment law and informed them of the consequences should it go to tribunal. Do I just leave these inaccuracies now and address them at tribunal, or do i contact the tribunal and list them all?

    Leave a comment:


  • ULA
    replied
    Definitely good preparation in the meantime until you get their defence documents through. At least then you will know how they will argue your claim.

    Leave a comment:


  • NoPaddle
    replied
    We know they breached their own rules and employment laws as its all documented. Their defence can only be the question of why they breached their own rules and employment laws, but it wouldn't change the fact that they breached those things. If their defence contradicts the documented notes they made at the time, then their defence must be lies. Im just preparing by looking at cases regarding the breaches we know about, and will argue any inconsistency between the documented notes and their defence if any occur.

    Leave a comment:


  • ULA
    replied
    Unfortunately rulings in higher courts are considered to be higher authority when it comes to presenting case law at a Tribunal hearing. So a quick learning lesson is if you find case law at an Employment Tribunal that may assist your claim, always check there as not been an appeal to the Employment Appeal Tribunal then potentially Court of Appeal or higher.

    I would just say that the ET process can be stressful and overwhelming for a litigant in person, as I assume that you are, so the best thing to do is take this a stage at a time.

    Currently, until you receive the ET3 and any Grounds of Resistance document from the college, or if they have now instructed a law firm then a solicitor, you do not know what their defence will be. Therefore at the moment you only have half the picture ,which is what your claim is and the evidence you have to prove that claim for which you can start researching case law to support your case with legal arguments.

    Once you know the defence being put in by the college, then you can start to think how you will "attack" that defence and again what case law there may be to assist you in that.

    Leave a comment:


  • NoPaddle
    replied
    As far as i'm aware I was just dealing with HR and the college principal. I highly doubt that they got any legal advice at all.

    Thanks for the case references. The judgement of Simone Agoreyo v London Borough of Lambeth was overturned by the Court of Appeal: see link below.

    I'll take a look at the others over the weekend.
    Over the last two decades, there have been a number of cases on the issue of suspension, its impact on the fairness of a dismissal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Benny8902
    replied
    Originally posted by NoPaddle View Post
    Still waiting for the ET3. The deadline for them to submit that is just over a week away. I have been given a date for a pre hearing in October this year. Is it normal to schedule a pre hearing before receiving the ET3?

    My (now ex) union rep ignored all my requests for the statement he said he would write. So I now cant use what he told me at the tribunal.

    I'm not a solicitor or anything. Though;

    Yes they will pre-schedule a PH sometimes before receiving the ET3. Respondents tend to file the day before the deadline most of the time.

    Only thing you can do for the Union rep is chase him up.


    I was reading further back and wanted to comment on what you said on page #2 below.

    The college claim that the breaches of employment law I cited were irrelevant because none of those cases were linked to schools!! That's the level I'm dealing with. I cited breaches to 'Burchell', but according to them, 'Burchell' is only relevant to cases that deal with the same type of business as the 'Burchell' case dealt with. They didn't bother commenting on the other employment laws they breached.

    They claim my original suspension was not predetermined simply because when they suspended me they gave me a letter that stated suspension is not a predetermination of guilt.
    It seems that in matter of fact you where not dealing with their HR department it was their solicitor. Which tends to happen, it's good to know for you that they have a gross misunderstanding of 'Burchell,' shows the incompetence of those individuals.


    Here is some helpful cases which I have found a long time ago which deal with suspension, they provide some support for certain positions. Have a read into them.
    1. Kaur v Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust [2018] EWCA Civ 978.
    2. Morrow v Safeway Stores [2002] IRLR 9
    3. Woods v WM Car Services (Peterborough) Ltd [1981] ICR 666, 672A.
    4. Harrison v Barking, Havering and Redbridge University Hospitals NHS Trust [2019] EWHC 3507 (QB).
    5. Gogay v Hertfordshire County Council [2000] EWCA Civ 228 (26 July 2000).

    Simone Agoreyo v London Borough of Lambeth [2017] EWHC 2019 (QB)

    "Whilst views generally might reasonably differ as to whether suspension is a "neutral act", the view of the courts is that it is not. In Mezey v South West London and St George's Mental Health NHS Trust[2007] EWCA Civ 106, for example, Sedley LJ, with whom Dyson LJ and Sir Peter Gibson agreed, said this:"

    Stay positive and fight them and show them their mistakes in full.
    Last edited by Benny8902; 25th March 2024, 19:44:PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • NoPaddle
    replied
    Still waiting for the ET3. The deadline for them to submit that is just over a week away. I have been given a date for a pre hearing in October this year. Is it normal to schedule a pre hearing before receiving the ET3?

    My (now ex) union rep ignored all my requests for the statement he said he would write. So I now cant use what he told me at the tribunal.

    Leave a comment:

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