Lowell - Orange Mobile

[AngelCenturi]

Hi all, and thanks in advance for any help give and for the help i have gained so far from these forums.

I received a court claim form from Lowell Portfolio on 9/10/18. For £586 plus costs making a total of £716 for a mobile phone i had with orange in 2000 - 2002 if i recall correctly.
Agreement was given to claimant on 31/3/16. As far as i am aware Orange was taken over by EE around 2010
I immediately went on to the court side and followed instructions about defending claim, and sent Lowell a CPR 31.14 on the 12/10/18 giving them 7 days to send relevant paperwork. Agreement with Orange and Notice of assignment. Also sent postal order to cover costs and took copies of everything sent.

I received a letter on 15/10/18 Notice of claim issue, i did contact Lowell saying i was intending to defend the case and had filled out MCOL website but apart from reference number and name i refused to part with any other information pertaining to myself, such as, email, phone number, work etc.

On 25/10/18, 14 days after sending request i received a confirmation of request letter which reads,

We confirm Receipt of your request for details relating to above account.
The account relates to a service agreement and not a credit agreement; it is not governed by the provisions of the consumer credit act 1974. Therefore there is no statutory requirement to complete any such "agreement" in order to obtain an account of this nature.
As you are probably aware, accounts of this type can be obtained by telephone, over the internet and by mail order and therefore, if no signed contract ever existed then it cannot be provided. The terms and conditions of telecommunications contracts are considered binding upon insertion of the sim card and requesting of service that is implicit in doing this, evidenced by phone usage costs, which forms part of the outstanding blanace that we seek to recover.
We have requested a copy of the notice of agreement ad once this is received we will contact you.

The last paragraph is about not responding to claim form and effect applying CCJ.

I have yet to receive any further correspondence from Lowell.

On the MCOL site 3 option are available through the claim.

Response Forms

If you dispute the whole claim or wish to make a claim (a counterclaim) against the claimant, complete the defence form. Start Defence

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If you admit part of the amount claimed, complete the Admission and the Defence form. Start Part Admission

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If you admit all of the amount claimed, complete the Admission form. View Instructions.


Any information or advice on what to do next would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again.

[Amethyst]

If you acknowlegded the claim ??? ( seems like you did to have those defence options showing up on MCOL ) then your defence should be in on the 9th Nov ( actually 11th Nov but that's a Sunday - you'd be okay to the Monday 4pm but safer to do it before the weekend )

So it's a mobile phone you had in 2000-2002 ? Blimey. Do you know when you defaulted/when it was terminated - should be well out of time ( over 6 years since acknowledgment or payment - limitations act 1980 section 5 )

Could you type out the particulars of claim from the claim form please xx

As you are probably aware, accounts of this type can be obtained by telephone, over the internet and by mail order and therefore, if no signed contract ever existed then it cannot be provided. The terms and conditions of telecommunications contracts are considered binding upon insertion of the sim card and requesting of service that is implicit in doing this, evidenced by phone usage costs, which forms part of the outstanding blanace that we seek to recover.
We have requested a copy of the notice of agreement ad once this is received we will contact you.

So besides them not having to produce any documents they are relying on evidence of phone usage costs, which they haven't supplied, and notice of assignment? ( guessing that may be a typo ) and they're relying on the terms, which they also haven't provided. Nothing to worry about in that letter - but in essence they are right, phone airtime/data contracts aren't regulated CCA agreements.

Have you sent a SAR ( Subject Access Request Letter ) to Orange at all ? ( not that it's likely to get anything if the account ended in 2002 but still worth doing in case there is anything else )

[AngelCenturi]

Unfortunately i have no idea when it was defaulted / terminated.

Don't know how to contact Orange as they no longer exist by that name, would be contacting EE or whomever took then over in 2010?

Particulars of Claim,

1) The defendant entered into an agreement with Orange under account reference ******** ('the Agreement')
2) The defendant failed to maintain the required payments and the service was terminated.
3)The Agreement was later assigned to the claimant on 31/03/16 and notice given to the defendant.
4) Despite repeated requests for payment, the sum of £540 remains due and outstanding.
And the claimant claims
a) The said sum of £540
b) Interest pursuant to s^( County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum from the date of assignment to the date of issue, accruing at a daily rate of £0.11, but limited to one year, being £43.
c) Costs.

Thanks again.

[Amethyst]

Yes, sorry, Orange SAR's would go to EE now. They are unlikely to have anything but at least you can plead that you tried to get info from Orange but likely due to it being 16 years old they don't have anything.

I'm always a bit suspicious that something may be statute barred when they don't put a date of default or termination in the POC, so I'd stick to your guns there. Does seem an awfully long time between termination/default and assignment though. Does the reference match anything you have ? ( unlikely you'd have anything if it was 2002 - but may be worth a check on your credit file see if anything is on there )

[AngelCenturi]

I just contacted EE / Orange / T-Mobile and they say i had an account with them starting 9/5/14 and Terminated 14/11/14 for non payment. I was given an email account for EE Queries to ask for more information, as for years going back as far as 2009 i have always been with O2 or Tesco using Samsung phones. The only Orange i remember was Nokia 3310.

All payment information they cant seem to get hold of as it my be archived. Will email EE and see what information i can gather.

[AngelCenturi]

Received email from EE Regarding the Orange account, According to them for the account in question they have an outstanding balance of only £119.58 Other than the balance, no other information was given apart from Account sold to Lowell whom as mentioned say the balance is £540. A difference of £420.42. Any information regarding what would be the best way to proceed would be grateful.

Thanks again.

[Amethyst]

This outstanding balance of £119.58 - was that related to the 2014 account that you have no knowledge of ?
Did you get the account reference number and did it match the ref given on the claim particulars ?
Did you ask EE/Orange to send you all the information they hold about the account?

starting 9/5/14 and Terminated 14/11/14

So we can use this in the Defence and Lowell will need to evidence the difference in amount, and that this was actually your account originally - which really requires the agreement.
Does anything show on your credit file at all?

[AngelCenturi]

Email reads,

Thank you for your email regarding your previous Orange account. (Account number matches same as from Lowell)
I confirm i have viewed your Orange account and it shows there is an outstanding balance of £119.58. This balance is relating to your July, August and October 2014 invoices which have not been cleared.
It shows your account was sold to Lowell on 31 March 2016, this means Orange are no longer the data controllers for your Credit file. Orange are no longer recording the default against you, you will need to speak to Lowell as they are now the data controllers for the debt.

No other information was given even though through previous email i asked for any information in relation to this account to be given.

Thank.

[Amethyst]

Hmmm okay. So in 2014 there was an account in your name, which you do not recall having at all. You know there was a payment in May or June 2014 so it may be worth getting your bank statements for those months to see if there were payments to EE/Orange in 2014.

Sounds like it may have been an 18 month contract at around £40 a month. A couple of payments were made then it terminated after missing 3 payments. And the rest of the contract was called in... which would bring it to around the £580. Strange that Orange/EE wouldn't have said that though - just it was three invoices unpaid totalling £120. I think next job is to check bank statements tbh, at least if you know you did * or didn't * have an orange/ee account in may/june 2014 you know what arguments to make going forward. Of course the claimants will have to evidence everything themselves.

[AngelCenturi]

Seems my current account only goes back as far as August 2014. Must of switched from either A&L or RBS in that year.

[AngelCenturi]

Still no response from Lowell regarding Orange Agreement. With all the current correspondence how would i go about this further in respect to contacting court? which option if any on MCOL i should select etc as i cannot appear in person as my wife works nights and we have young children. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Defense should be by 9/11/18 i was informed on previous reply.

Thanks.

[Amethyst]

Yes you will need to enter your defence. Attending court is a long way off so don't worry about that at all - after your defence is filed there will be a month for the claimant to go back to the court, then the court will issue a 'Directions Questionnaire' which moves the case to your local court and you can opt for telephone mediation etc.

[AngelCenturi]

No remembering taking out the contract in the first place but not 100% sure, Having to pay some of the cost if no problem however lack of paperwork on their behalf which option would be better to select? Defense or Part admission.

Thanks Again.

[Amethyst]

Defence. Part Admission would result in a CCJ and you'd still need to defend the rest of the claim. As you don't recognise having an Orange account at all in 2014 then I wouldn't be admitting anything. And push the claimant to produce evidence of the amounts they are claiming.

I would though try and get your statement from the bank account you had at the time. Or possibly if Orange/EE do still have the details of that £119 bill, they might have details of the previous payments and where they came from ( card payments/ standing order etc ) which might help narrow down if it was yours. Did they tell you the address it was registered at etc and that all matched up?

A Subject Access Request to EE/Orange would help so I'd get that under way. Subject Access Request Letter

And draft your defence ready to go in Wednesday.

[AngelCenturi]

DEFENCE



1. I received the claim ******* from the Northampton County Court on October 11^th 2018.

2. Each and every allegation in the Claimants statement of case is denied unless specifically admitted in this Defence.

3. This claim appears to be for a mobile phone agreement regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

4. The Claimants statement of case fails to give adequate information to enable me to properly assess my position with regards the claim.

5. The Claimant’s Particulars of Claim fail to state when the agreement was entered into.

6. The Claimants statement of case states that the account was assigned from Orange to Lowell Portfolio Limited on 31/03/2016. The Defendant does not recall receiving notice of this assignment.

7. It is denied that [Original Creditor] served any Default notice on the Defendant pursuant to s87 Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Claimant is required to prove that a compliant Default Notice was served upon the Defendant. The Claimant is required to prove that the any Default notice relied upon complied with the requirements of s88(4A) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and that the notice was in the prescribed form as required by The Consumer Credit Enforcement Default and Termination Notice Regulations 1983.

8. On 12/10/2018 I sent a request for inspection of documents mentioned in the claimant’s statement of case under Civil Procedure Rule 31.14 to Lowell’s Solicitor. I requested the Claimant provide copies of the Agreement and Notice of Assignment.

9. Lowell’s Solicitor has not sent any of these documents to me.

10. On 10/11/2018 a Subject Access Request letter was sent to Orange, asking for information on current and previous address.

11. Under Civil Procedure Rule 16.5 (4) where the claim includes a money claim, a defendant shall be taken to require that any allegation relating to the amount of money claimed be proved unless he expressly admits the allegation. Therefore, it is expected that the Claimant be required to prove the allegation that the money is owed as claimed.

12. I request the court orders the Claimants to provide the necessary documentation in order for me to fully plead my case else the Claim should stand struck out.

13. In the event that the relevant documents are received from the Claimants I will then be in a position to amend my defense, and would ask that the Claimants bear the costs of the amendment.

14. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief as claimed or at all.

Statement of Truth

The Defendant believes that the facts stated in this Defence are true.



Hoping this is ok for defence, please let me know if any amendments need to be made, thanks again for all the support and advice so far.