Charge Notification Letters Required

[Budgie]

Dear All,

I urgently need copies of either charge notification letters from Banks, dated between 2001 and the present day.

Ideally the target is to build up a collection of such letters for each bank, for each account type and for each year ( covering the various changes in versions of the relevant terms and conditions for each bank ).

Additionally copies of any responses from Banks in relation to preliminary reclaim letters or LBA's would also be extremely useful.

What I am specifically looking for are written statements within those letters detailing exactly what the charges were in respect of, confirming a breach of contract, failure to fulfill obligations or other key information.

Please post copies up on this thread but make sure you remove any personal identification information first.

Thanks Budgie

[ed.]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

Bud, I already asked about this on PAG the other week - seems we had the same idea. If I get any good ones I'll pass them over mate.

Hadn't thought of prelim/lba responses - will add that to list and let you know aswell.

[Smasher]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

I'll send a newsletter request out to the old RUC database. Most claimants there claimed under historics..

[Amethyst]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

Was just looking for some letter examples and came across this in the CC report - http://www.competition-commission.or...t/527_4-13.pdf
Pre-notification: current requirements, practices and future requirements

The Consumer Credit Act 2006 future requirements
6. The relevant requirements on pre-notification of the CCA 2006 (which amends the CCA 1974) are likely to come into force in October 2008.
7. The CCA requires that creditors give the customer a notice when a sum becomes payable due to a breach of the agreement (default sum). Examples of such a default sum include charges imposed for late payment of an instalment or a fee imposed for exceeding a credit limit on a credit card. The term default sum does not apply to
A4(13)-1
interest, and therefore this provision would not apply to differential interest rates applied to unauthorized overdrafts.
8. The bank can only enforce the agreement and deduct charges from a customer’s account once they have given notice. The CCA does not, however, provide for a particular notice period before the default sum is deducted from a customer’s account. The bank may only require the customer to pay interest in connection with a default sum 28 days after the day the notice was given.
9. The notice may be issued separately or incorporated in a statement or another notice that is required under the CCA.
10. Practically, where a charge is incurred because a customer has exceeded their authorized overdraft, that charge would be considered to be a default sum. The bank could not, therefore, impose the charge until it had provided the customer with a notice. The bank would not be able to charge interest on the value of the charge until the 29th day after the notice was given, although it could charge a higher rate of interest on the overdrawn balance.

Any use?

Theres a difference between practically in the CC's view and the current judgment legal view but all adds to the concealment of the true nature argument IMO. Also the change to BCOBS will effect this.

[Budgie]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

Perfect, thanks Ame

[ed.]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

I hadn't got as far as 2006 - I just knew my bits that you read weren't affected. I still think the CCA overrules everything else though here. They can't just ignore parts of the CCA they don't like and call them something else - when they rely on 87(1) when defaulting and calling OD's in.

And let's not forget, in the 06 they were quick enough to remove 127(3) so why didn't they insist on alterations in relation to charges aswell??? Unless they thought nobody had noticed it of course.

[Amethyst]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

I think by that time they knew they had to rely on the charges NOT being default charges but service fees so to argue the CCA would have given them a sticky wicket in the test case ? (could be completely utterly wrong on that one tho)

[ed.]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

Time wise I'm sure the CCA was sorted pre + 05 because it started to be enacted in 06. OFT didn't get involved until 07 and you are right going back post Test Case to try and re-amend the 06 amendments would've resulted in a lot of publicity and ultimately shot themselves I think.

If they have possibly dodged the 1994 bullet, or like to think they have....is the CCA retrospective to 1979 - one for Curly probably lol

Would also explain why Sumption? glossed over the Master of the Rolls comments relatively quickly!

[Smasher]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

Just an excerpt from a reply I got from HSBC last year when I questioned them about the new 'services'. I've scanned the letters and will email them to Budgie.

[Luminol]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

I'll have a dig around Budgie, and post some up

[EXC]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

Well done you lot. Smasher's is a corker! Keep em coming.

[Smasher]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

The excerpt below is not from a notification letter, its from the terms of the 2006 overdraft renewal notice.



Furthermore, I dug out their written defence from my personal account claim of early 2006. This is their one and only point on which they justify their charges:
"Persuant to the defendant's terms & conditions the defendant is entitled to make a charge for its services as set out in the defendant's price list including an overdraft review fee for considering whether to provide and providing an overdraft."

Given that the new 'services' T&Cs were over a year and a half away when this claim was made, this defence is completely knackered! Even if they were to argue that the review fee was the service rather than the OD itself, the above term would squash that argument because it clearly states that the review fee is to cover costs. No mention of a service anywhere..

I'm sure there must still be claims in the system with the exact same terms and defence as this. I don't know if this will serve any use, but thought it worth posting..

PS: I've emailed the full versions, let me know if you got em ok.

[Budgie]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

Just posting up mine


My Halifax claim was stayed at the allocation hearing stage
My POC referred to common law penalty, UTCCR1999, UCTA1977 +SOGAS.


Letters I received from the Halifax ( charge notification ) state the following : (extracts)

" We haven't been able to pay the item (s) shown below because there wasn't enough money in your account. To cover our costs, we make a charge of £39 ( maximum 3 charges per day ) for any item we can't pay. We will take this money from your account seven days from the date of this letter. If it causes you to have an unauthorised overdraught, we will also charge you interest at the unauthorised rate and a monthly unauthorised overdraft fee of £28."

The notification letters themselves are referred to in the terms and conditions so are a part of the contract. The wording of the letter describes the reason for the charge ( because they didn't pay the item ), the amount of the charge (£39) and what the charge is actually for ( to cover their costs ).

Furthermore, in response to my preliminary letter in 2007 Halifax wrote :

"When you opened your account, you agreed to our terms and conditions which explained that charges would be applied if you did not keep to the terms of the account."

and

"We apply these charges because when customers have insufficient funds in their account to cover a payment they have asked us to make, this means additional work for us. As a result we feel it is reasonable to charge for this service."

and

"As previously explained, the charges you are asking us to refund are our fees for the additional work that we carry out when a Customer requests a payment without insufficient funds in their account."

and

"If you continue to manage your account in this way, future charges will be applied to your account."

and ( very important )

"If you need greater flexibility, we may be able to help you by providing an overdraft or extending your overdraft facility. This can help to keep the costs of any unauthorised transactions down."

So, this letter links the charges to breaches of the terms and conditions, links the charges to failed transactions owing to insufficent funds and confirms the charge is intended to cover the costs of the extra work involved. The letter goes on to re confirm the penal nature for continued breaches and then finally confirms that the charges are not for consideration of an overdraft or overdraft extension by virtue of the fact that that service is offered as an alternative option.

[ed.]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

Been sent the same Smash for 07 for HSBC. I'm building a list, and will pass on later tonight.

[BobbyH]

Re: Charge Notification Letters Required

Budgie

Scanned reply from Abbey on my prelim (all those years ago!!)
Not sure it helps though!

BobbyH