Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

[worriedsussex]

Hi,

Have got lots of advice from the National Debt Line who were extremely helpful having received a letter saying they were returning to remove goods in 24 hours - no visit so far.

Have tried to liaise with the council who won't go accept any offer - we have emailed them as well saying we will not allow the bailiffs in the house to remove goods. We did not receive any previous correspondence they quote they visited on 15th Feb (my husband was off with our children for half term and was home) so they didn't try very hard. Plus he would have seen the letter if posted through door.

The council have responded to our email saying they will not accept our offer and that the bailiffs have a walking possession order on a car - which actually was scrapped the same half term week as it was so old.

We have had a very bad run of luck redundancy and struggling generally.

We moved in July 2009 and that's when things went wrong. But both working well now.

We do not have this walking possession order - did not receive it and certainly not signed for it - but the council state...


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I am unable to accept your offer of paying the arrears of £1666.49 over 24 months. This is an unacceptably long period for repayment. I am aware that you have made this offer to cover only the arrears and that you will pay any new liability in addition to this. However, I must also take into account that you have been resident at the property since July 2009 and the Council has received no payment on this account since your original bill of 10 August 2009. I also note that there has been no contact with the Council until after the bailiffs were involved in the case.

I must therefore confirm that your offer is not acceptable and that you should contact Chandlers immediately to make payment. Any payments received by the Council, as you have indicated, will be notified to Chandlers and will reduce the amount outstanding. You should however make future payments towards this liability to Chandlers.

You should be aware that Chandlers have already obtained walking possession on some of your goods and these are at risk if payment is not made.
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We made a payment and will continue to pay the council.

But does this walking posession stand - the car was on our private drive - also we dont have the car now - so what happens if it does stand??

I guess as they have a walking possession the council think they are in a good position?

Any advice will be greatly received

Thank you - just want to know our next step if they have a legally gained walking possession order.

[TUTTSI]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

Hi WS

A very warm welcome to Legal Beagles.

Please have a read of Amy's guide to Bailiffs as there maybe some info in there that may help you.
http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=14113

What advice did the National help line offer?

One of the team will be along soon to help you very soon. In the mean time try not to worry.

Tuttsi

[Amy]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

Have you read the bailiff guide at the top of this forum yet? If not, you really need to Bailiff Guide - Legal Beagles

The Walking Possession will not stand. You have not allowed them entry to your property and they have not made two visits, despite the fact that they will claim they have. If in doubt about the charges added to your account consider sending a Subject Access Request - you will find a link to this in the bailiff guide.

Councils always chant the line "there is nothing we can do, as your debt is with the bailiffs now". This again, will not stand. They are responsible for their bailiffs and if the bailiffs have lied, which it would appear they have, then the council need to accept responsibility for this and take some action against the bailiffs. But they will only do this if you complain.

So, first things first then - send your SAR (including the £10 fee) and then write a letter of complaint to the council for their conduct.

Lastly, I would add that although you have offered payments to clear the arrears, I agree with the council that this is a very long period of time - it is only equivalent to £70 per month. If you are both working now, could you increase the payments?

[worriedsussex]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

Have you read the bailiff guide at the top of this forum yet? If not, you really need to Bailiff Guide - Legal Beagles

The Walking Possession will not stand. You have not allowed them entry to your property and they have not made two visits, despite the fact that they will claim they have. If in doubt about the charges added to your account consider sending a Subject Access Request - you will find a link to this in the bailiff guide.

Councils always chant the line "there is nothing we can do, as your debt is with the bailiffs now". This again, will not stand. They are responsible for their bailiffs and if the bailiffs have lied, which it would appear they have, then the council need to accept responsibility for this and take some action against the bailiffs. But they will only do this if you complain.

So, first things first then - send your SAR (including the £10 fee) and then write a letter of complaint to the council for their conduct.

Lastly, I would add that although you have offered payments to clear the arrears, I agree with the council that this is a very long period of time - it is only equivalent to £70 per month. If you are both working now, could you increase the payments?

Thank you have had a read through for the bailiff guide - very useful. Not sure the SAR would help though as we havne't been bullied threatened into making payment by the bailiff at all or am I not understanding it?


We initially spoke on the phone to the council offering £250 per month but revisited htis as the debtline said make sure its affordable. they very much seem unwilling to take this back.

We have communicated by email to the council and the bailiff (same email copied to both).


My main concern is this so called 'walking possession order' which we have not received at all and not signed for - will it hold water? Or is it merely the fact that we have not allowed them access to the property - despite the fact the car was on our drive? As I say we don't have the car now?

I want to respond to the council but want to be clear I have the facts completely straight?

Thank you - this really is a great forum

[Amy]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

Thank you have had a read through for the bailiff guide - very useful. Not sure the SAR would help though as we havne't been bullied threatened into making payment by the bailiff at all or am I not understanding it?

A SAR will show you what fees have been added to your account, then you will be able to protest them.

My main concern is this so called 'walking possession order' which we have not received at all and not signed for - will it hold water? Or is it merely the fact that we have not allowed them access to the property - despite the fact the car was on our drive? As I say we don't have the car now?

It will not hold water because they have not attended your property twice yet. Vehicles are an easy target to levy upon as they cause the maximum upset and usually result in a near instant payment. However, in your case you scrapped the vehicle and were not aware of any walking possession so don't worry about this.

I want to respond to the council but want to be clear I have the facts completely straight?

Although the council claim they cannot deal with you, they can and you should just pay them direct and ignore their claims that you must deal with the bailiff.

[worriedsussex]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

A SAR will show you what fees have been added to your account, then you will be able to protest them.



It will not hold water because they have not attended your property twice yet. Vehicles are an easy target to levy upon as they cause the maximum upset and usually result in a near instant payment. However, in your case you scrapped the vehicle and were not aware of any walking possession so don't worry about this.



Although the council claim they cannot deal with you, they can and you should just pay them direct and ignore their claims that you must deal with the bailiff.

Thanks again sorry to keep coming back.

I have a list of the charges from the council

first visit apparently on 4 Feb £24.50, second visit £71.00 and walking possession order issued which we do not have - then visit this week £200.00 totally £295.50.

Do you think the council will ever accept an offer - our worry is that if we go to more per month we will struggle as of course the next council tax year shortly and that will mean paying out so much per month on council tax alone really meaning we will be struggling for food etc.

This is a 2 year payment plan at present and if things improve then of course we will increase payments - perhaps I should make this clearer to them.

I'm trying to word my reply to the council now - should I ask for a copy of the walking possession order that we never received? or just continue to advise it was not received.

Are they only able to collect the goods listed on the possession order anyway?

[Amy]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

Thanks again sorry to keep coming back.

Don't be daft, it's what we're here for.

first visit apparently on 4 Feb £24.50 - correct, second visit £71.00 - wrong, this can only be £18.00 and walking possession order issued which we do not have - then visit this week £200.00 - wrong, they can visit 3 million times but are only permitted to charge for two visits and then only if they are on separate days totally £295.50. Therefore, the maximum they should be charging you is £42.50.

Do you think the council will ever accept an offer - our worry is that if we go to more per month we will struggle as of course the next council tax year shortly and that will mean paying out so much per month on council tax alone really meaning we will be struggling for food etc.

This is a 2 year payment plan at present and if things improve then of course we will increase payments - perhaps I should make this clearer to them.

For now, just pay what you can direct to the council. You might also like to have a look at this thread, post #5 in particular Rossendales Bailiff - Legal Beagles

I'm trying to word my reply to the council now - should I ask for a copy of the walking possession order that we never received? or just continue to advise it was not received.

Definitely, you should ask for them for everything, but they will more than likely refer you back to the bailiffs, this is why I suggested going straight to SAR.

Are they only able to collect the goods listed on the possession order anyway?

Yes they are, but in this instance the walking possession is invalid for the reasons I have already explained.

[worriedsussex]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

thanks Amy that thread was very useful.

Can I just confirm that a walking possession order has to be signed by the debtor or not? or a representative of the debtor - can a bailiff sign on our behalf? I'm getting confused on this one!

Anyway have drafted a note to the council - how does this read?

Thank you for your email and confirmation of the charges which appear to be over and above the lawful charges they can make?

I am confused regarding the walking possession order - this has DEFINITELY not been received by ourselves and the first knowledge of the bailiffs visit was this week. Also it has not been signed by ourselves. So I am intrigued to know what is on this order as we have not allowed them entry to the property. I would therefore request a copy of this order as I believe this is invalid - Chanlders has never entered my property peacefully and as we have never signed a walking possession order then do not understand how this is valid.

I will be shortly writing a letter of complaint to yourselves and Chandlers regarding their conduct.

In addition the charges that have been applied seem way above what they are able to charge. Under the Council Tax Administration and Enforcement Act 1993 (as amended) a first visit of £24.50 and a second visit fee, if necessary £18.00. No further visit fees can be imposed thus the bailiff has committed fraud by false represenation, which is a criminal offence. As Chandlers acts as a agent for Lewes District Council, you are equally culpable and liable for the actions of Chandlers.

I reiterate that we will not be permitting the bailiffs on our property and allowing them access and they have no lawful right to enter in my absence unlawfully.

With regard to repayment, we have offered an affordable figure at this time and of course if things improve then payments will be increased. As advised we will continue to make payments to yourselves - which both you and Chandlers are able to accept but choose not to.

Regards



Thank again Amy

Don't be daft, it's what we're here for.





For now, just pay what you can direct to the council. You might also like to have a look at this thread, post #5 in particular Rossendales Bailiff - Legal Beagles

Definitely, you should ask for them for everything, but they will more than likely refer you back to the bailiffs, this is why I suggested going straight to SAR.



Yes they are, but in this instance the walking possession is invalid for the reasons I have already explained.

[Amy]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

Can I just confirm that a walking possession order has to be signed by the debtor or not? or a representative of the debtor - can a bailiff sign on our behalf? I'm getting confused on this one!

Some say it doesn't have to be signed, I would argue that it does. In any case, it must be valid and they cannot apply a levy fee when they have not gained peaceful entry to your property.

Try this and if have the name of the bailiff, have you checked to see if he is certificated?

Thank you for your email and confirmation of the charges applied to my account.

However, I request that you explain why your bailiffs have applied visit fees when I have not received any visits from any of your bailiffs and as such, I have not received any paperwork from them. Furthermore, the fees applied to my account for these visits are incorrect. The fees a bailiff is permitted to charge are prescribed in law, specifically Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and only two visits are permitted to be charged for and then only if the visits are made on separate dates. The permitted fees for these visits are £24.50 for the first visit and £18.00 for the second. Why has an unprescribed fee of £71.00 been added to my account for the second visit and why has a third visit been applied attracting a fee of £200?

These visits did not take place and, therefore, the resulting walking possession order is invalid. A walking possession order may only be contemplated after two separate visits are made and also, in the case of the recovery of council tax, when peaceful entry has been given to the bailiffs.

The bailiff has attempted to defraud me by adding unprescribed fees and visits and since Chandlers act as your agents, you are equally culpable and liable in this matter. Your bailiffs have committed fraud by false representation, which is a criminal offence and unless I receive a satisfactory response from you regarding the matters I have raised, I intend to make a complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman on grounds of maladministration, misfeasance and/or malfeasance in public office regarding your flawed procedures and failure to control your agent, Chandlers.


Kind regards

[worriedsussex]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

Major update - more help needed please:

First email from council

I have now had a chance to review your account.

I did give you an outline of the bailiff's fees that have been raised by Chandlers in my email of 3 March 2010. These details covered the amounts of the fees and the dates on which they were raised. You are now asking for details of the actual bailiff's visits.

The first visit to your property was made on 15 February 2010 at 6.46 AM. There was no reply but there was a vehicle at the property. The Renault Laguna had a levy placed on it and the bailiff posted the green levy document, through your letterbox, in a sealed envelope. A copy of the Schedule relating to Charges Connected with Distress was also left at this time. I am attaching a copy of this Schedule for your reference.

As mentioned in my earlier email, the fees at this stage amounted to £24.50 (raised on your case on 4 February 2010 in readiness for the visit) and £71.00 (raised on 15 February 2010) for the actual levy. The levy fee of £71.00 is based on a % of the Council Tax owed and is calculated in line with the Schedule.

As Chandlers had not received payment or contact, a second visit was made on 1 March 2010 at 12.12 PM. This was done with a vehicle with a view to the removal of goods. The fees for this are covered in 1.C of the Schedule and are defined as "reasonable costs and fees". In this case the fee was £200.00. The Laguna was not available at the time of the visit but a Notice of Bailiff Attendance was posted through your letterbox in a sealed envelope.

I did mention in my previous email that Chandlers had obtained a walking possession order. I now understand that a Levy was placed on the Laguna but that there is no Walking Possession Order in existence. In your case there was no one available to sign the Order. In these circumstances, a Levy is placed on goods that the bailiff can see. A Levy can be made at any stage and there is no requirement for a minimum number of visits before a levy.

I can confirm that both Chandlers and Lewes District Council have acted fully within the legislation in the recovery of the outstanding Council Tax. I note that you suggest that Chandlers have made false representation but do not offer any evidence as to why you think that.

You may, of course, choose to make a complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman. I will respond to any such complaint when required. In the meantime, I confirm that Chandlers will continue to recover the outstanding Council Tax amount of £1942.99 (including bailiff fees).

I would again urge you to contact Chandlers immediately on 020 8290 5055 to arrange payment and prevent any further recovery action. No further notice will be given before this action is taken.

My response:

An interesting reply from yourselves and contradicts your previous email.
I will seek further advice your initial email states that a walking possession order was in place and now you have changed this to a levy not walking possession order (although these appear to be the same thing?) and why did you state in your first email it was a walking possession order - then on querying the fees it has suddenly changed its name?

I therefore only had your information to go on and state they could not issue the walking possession order (in fact I think they also are unable to issue a levy either) without peaceful entry - and therefore the charges are not correct based on your initial facts as they have not followed correct procedure - that was my evidence.

I will be in touch with yourself in due course and will contact chandlers with an SAR to understand how these charges have been made.

I would request further copies regarding the levy and visit 15 February, interesting at this time of day there would have been three cars on the drive and we would have been home.

Why did you say in your first email that it was a walking posession order but now state it's a levy - I will of course get legal confirmation regarding what the difference is and why the bailiffs therefore feel they can charge £71.00 and subsequently £200.00. The last letter we of course have received and are willing to make payment against the debt as previously advised.

In addition, I would highlight that the car in question was scrapped that very week as we were unaware of the so called levy visit. It was a broken down unused car.

Final response from council:

Thank you for your email.

I did state that the levy had been made in my third paragraph of my email of 3 March 2010. This was correct. The difference between the levy and a walking possession order is the fact that the charge payer is present and signs the walking possession order. A levy is valid even without the charge payer's signature.

The fees for the levy are as stated in both my emails. The mention of the walking possession order in the final paragraph was an error on my part and does not alter anything else in the emails.

There is no need to enter your property to levy on goods outside the building.

You mention the term SAR in your email. Can you please explain this acronym?

You should contact Chandlers direct if you have any further questions regarding the fees, visits or their handling of the case. Chandlers have your full case details to hand.

So where do we go from here????

Any suggestions:

We do not have the car so can they come and get something else - the car was worthless anyway would have been happy to hand the keys over there and then!

What difference does a levy make?

Have they followed correct procedure - they have not done two visits?

Thanks again everyone - I feel sick with worry over this in fact have had a migraine all day and actually feel like throwing up.

[WendyB]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

Hi. I'm not exactly sure what to dvise but am sure someone will be along soon.

What I do suggest is that you keep to one thread as that keeps things all in order and makes it easier ffor people to follow and offer advice.

[Amy]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

I have a list of the charges from the council

first visit apparently on 4 Feb £24.50, second visit £71.00 and walking possession order issued which we do not have - then visit this week £200.00 totally £295.50.

From your post #6 - do you have this in writing? How do you mean "apparently"?

[worriedsussex]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

From your post #6 - do you have this in writing? How do you mean "apparently"?

from the council's email

see below:

Dear Mr Horler,
Thank you for your two emails. I am presuming that these were originally addressed to the bailiffs concerned and we have received the copies as mentioned in your penultimate paragraph.

I have spoken to Chandlers, the Council's appointed bailiffs, about your case. I am responding on the Council's behalf although I am giving details of the fees charged by Chandlers. I am sending a copy of this email to Chandlers.

Certain bailiff fees that have been raised are, as you state, laid down in statute. You have been charged £24.50 on 4 February 2010 for the first Levy letter, £71.00 on 15 February for a levy made following a visit to your property and a further £200.00 attendance fee on 1 March following a further visit. The fees now amount to £295.50. Any further details that you require about these fees can be obtained from Chandlers.

I am unable to accept your offer of paying the arrears of £1666.49 over 24 months. This is an unacceptably long period for repayment. I am aware that you have made this offer to cover only the arrears and that you will pay any new liability in addition to this. However, I must also take into account that you have been resident at the property since July 2009 and the Council has received no payment on this account since your original bill of 10 August 2009. I also note that there has been no contact with the Council until after the bailiffs were involved in the case.

I must therefore confirm that your offer is not acceptable and that you should contact Chandlers immediately to make payment. Any payments received by the Council, as you have indicated, will be notified to Chandlers and will reduce the amount outstanding. You should however make future payments towards this liability to Chandlers.

You should be aware that Chandlers have already obtained walking possession on some of your goods and these are at risk if payment is not made.

Local Taxation Manager
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

Hi. I'm not exactly sure what to dvise but am sure someone will be along soon.

What I do suggest is that you keep to one thread as that keeps things all in order and makes it easier ffor people to follow and offer advice.

wasn't sure if whether it would get picked up - my apologies feel free to delete the other threed.

[Amy]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

I would be inclined to say you should pay the council whatever you can and wait for the SAR reply to come back.

The council have stated quite clearly that the first visit to you was made 15th February, but they also levied on the same date on the Laguna. They cannot charge a visit fee and a levy fee on the same date, but in case they get clever and try to alter the dates - let them hang themselves in writing first.

The first visit was also timed at 6.46am, you have young children, is it likely you would have been out by that time in the morning?

A bailiff cannot attend your property to remove goods without a valid walking possession order, which there is not and if they have only levied on the Laguna, what goods were they hoping to remove in a van?

In any case, attendance with a van is when a payment arrangement has not been maintained. However, in your case you haven't even made an arrangemet with them to pay. They also quote their fees must be "reasonable". How can a fee of £200 for a visit to one property possibly be reasonable when one can hire a van from the Yellow Pages for considerably less?

[TUTTSI]

Re: Bailiffs Walking Possession order unsigned not received

6:46am I am really sure is outside the Bailiffs allowed times to visit and unacceptable as I seem to remember this from some years ago when we also had a problem with a Bailiff also turning up at this time. I thought it was on the OFT web site but I could not find it. Perhaps someone will have the link to what is the allowed time for them to call. It is probably something like 7am - 9pm?


I was not so knowledgable then and sites like this were not arround so it was not so easy to get this type of information.

Tuttsi

ps just done some researching and came up with this:
Visits should ideally only be made between 6am and 9pm (or any time that the debtor is conducting business). Visits should not take place on Sundays, Bank Holidays, Good Friday or Christmas Day, unless legislation or a Court permits this. Respect for other religions and cultures should be upheld, and visits avoided on appropriate festivals and holidays.