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*** DISCONTINUED *** Unjust Enrichment

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  • #16
    Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Hi again,
    Don't panic. They aren't trying to lay blame at your door so to speak, they are just stating the facts. It's one department not keeping up with the other that has caused the payment to be made. As you say it is the in-house lawyer who has sent this to you. Probably because they think that hearing from a lawyer will hopefully scare you into suddenly finding the money. I think you may also be reading too much into this as far as sour grapes by C. They have messed up and want their money back seems to be the long and short of it but seem not to be open to negotiating at the moment!

    Your description of your circumstances above explains the situation clearly and I would suggest a response to the letter along those lines may help.
    I appreciate that you have probably already said these things to C but by responding to the pre action letter, setting out the facts as they have in their letter and explaining why you are not in a position to pay the whole sum back in a lump sum, would be helpful.

    Explain your family situation and the facts that lead up to this confusion. I would also explain why you believed the amount was due to you (having not checked the statement at that time), that you were on a fixed term contract which you had short notice would be ending, hence you applied for the job at C. Explain how once your fixed term contract ended, your salary reduced at your current company, and your job was no longer available, hence the application to C. You were then offered a new job on better terms at the current company, so your salary would return to the level it was while you were on the fixed term contract etc etc

    Explain the payment dates of the 2 companies and why you thought the payment was from your current employer, having only looked at the balance and not the bank statement and not having received anything in writing, confirming the date your employment with the current company would recommence. I would then state that you had hoped that this matter could be settled sensibly without the need for Court proceedings, having offered to settle at numerous stages prior to this letter and having in fact chased C to deal with the issue (if that was the case). Treat it like you are talking to someone completely new who hasn't been involved and may not have seen the previous correspondence from others you have had contact with.

    I would then set out the offer you are making to repay the amount they wish to claim. I would set out exactly why this is the maximum you can offer. Explain that you have sought advice on this and having gone through your income and outgoings that this is the maximum amount you can afford.
    You can say you have previously offered to make monthly payments but this was not accepted. Bearing in mind your change of position you have no other way of dealing with the issue. I would then give them 21 days to confirm their acceptance of this offer (why ask for their views?)

    I suspect that the finance dept has contacted the in house lawyer who will start the ball rolling. They may not have seen previous correspondence and are not aware of the full picture. However the in house lawyer will also be providing his advice on what C should be doing and will provide them with a cost benefit analysis no doubt on the cost or potential costs to C of taking any particular action.

    They may of course not accept the offer and insist on issuing proceedings. It is up to them of course but bearing in mind the facts surrounding this mistake, and the fact you have tried to settle the matter and provided you are able to back up everything with formal documents, bank statements etc then you may have an good argument.

    I would recommend that you do obtain some face to face legal advice if this does become an issued claim. It may not be necessary to have a lawyer acting in the whole matter for you but just to check you have covered all bases particularly in any defence. If at all possible, it would be sensible. You may find some other advice on the forum from people who have had this sort of claim issued against them, who may be able to assist further too.

    Hopefully this helps in the meantime.
    I am a qualified solicitor and am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

    If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Unjust Enrichment

      [MENTION=85500]Peridot[/MENTION]

      Thanks for the detailed response and I have indeed gone over a lot of these points in previous correspondence as well as my response to their Legal Counsel.

      I have made the offer and even said that we should enter into a written payment agreement for the repayment if it's acceptable to them to protect both parties.

      My initial post and follow ups are I suppose pre judging their response to that, whilst past performance isn't an guarantee to future performance usually it's a good indicator. Actually though I just need to see what their response is now.
      COMPLETING AN N180 DIRECTIONS QUESTIONNAIRE (SMALL CLAIMS TRACK) GUIDE

      My posts here are based on my experience of a variety of life events. I have no formal legal training & if in doubt take professional legal advice or contact CAB. If you follow anything I write here you do so at your own risk & I accept no liability for any loss, costs or other outcomes.

      Private messages are disabled as help is only offered publicly. I do not come on here in the evening, at weekends or on public holidays.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Unjust Enrichment

        Take a breath and wait. Often the hardest part I'm afraid. Hopefully it can get sorted soon.
        I am a qualified solicitor and am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

        Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

        If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Unjust Enrichment

          So I have had another letter basically trying to turn the screws and it has a print of the screens of MCOL to show that they have completed and saved a potential claim.

          The basics of the POC are:
          Money paid to me in error
          I disagreed with their repayment proposal
          I admitted owing the money and made a counter proposal

          My question is - as I have made an offer of repayment does that mean that I would stand no chance of defending this with a Change of Position Defence? Have I accepted liability and this is open and shut for them?

          The reason I ask, if they do go ahead and issue the claim, I hope filing a defence might focus them to realise that they might get nothing and as a result be a bit more sensible about this!

          Edited to add: In Fact I'd go as far as to send them my draft defence pre-claim to focus their minds potentially.
          COMPLETING AN N180 DIRECTIONS QUESTIONNAIRE (SMALL CLAIMS TRACK) GUIDE

          My posts here are based on my experience of a variety of life events. I have no formal legal training & if in doubt take professional legal advice or contact CAB. If you follow anything I write here you do so at your own risk & I accept no liability for any loss, costs or other outcomes.

          Private messages are disabled as help is only offered publicly. I do not come on here in the evening, at weekends or on public holidays.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Unjust Enrichment

            I wouldn't go sending draft defences at all. You don't actually want to defend the case, as you are, and always have been, willing to repay the overpayment.

            You have made a sensible offer ( although personally I'd say up it to 10% per month if the £58.08 isn't set on worked out from a reasonable income expenditure form?)

            You don't want to get a CCJ over something like this, as you admit the money is owed, if you entered an admission and offer to pay to court, you would have payments set, probably at your offer rate, but you would also have a CCJ on your file for 6 years.

            Personally I'd send a letter headed ''without prejudice save as to costs'' with your offer, without any whys and wherefores, in the interests of negating the need for court action and further time and costs this will inevitably incur, simply making your offer and enclosing the first months payment and informing them the date of the next payment ( and then if they do sod all by then, send it - and keep records !)

            But that is just my thoughts.

            From what you have said about their POC draft, I'm gathering your previous offers weren't sent without prejudice at all?
            #staysafestayhome

            Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

            Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Unjust Enrichment

              Sometimes its easy to get caught up in the principle of the thing and forget the big picture, that's all I'm saying xxxx
              #staysafestayhome

              Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

              Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Unjust Enrichment

                Thanks for the response, you're correct the offers were not made with a "without predjudice" statement. Hindsight is wonderful eh?

                By offering repayment I assume I have surrendered any argument that they were made as goodwill gestures and now bind me?

                I thought, but of course could be wrong, that it's making actual payment that determines liability as you wouldn't make a payment to a debt you don't owe and might offer repayment initially on something you thing you might owe, then later realise you don't and make no payment?

                If I have learnt anything from this, I need to check my bank more and where money in it actually comes from.
                COMPLETING AN N180 DIRECTIONS QUESTIONNAIRE (SMALL CLAIMS TRACK) GUIDE

                My posts here are based on my experience of a variety of life events. I have no formal legal training & if in doubt take professional legal advice or contact CAB. If you follow anything I write here you do so at your own risk & I accept no liability for any loss, costs or other outcomes.

                Private messages are disabled as help is only offered publicly. I do not come on here in the evening, at weekends or on public holidays.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Unjust Enrichment

                  If it helps, I've been there... and the thief labelling... quite publicly.... horrid time and I was farting about being all principled because I was angry, and almost ended up with a CCJ. ( and it was only something like £200 lol )

                  Not marking the letter as without prejudice doesn't automatically make it not without prejudice btw... if that makes sense. Its the content of the letter - it must be a genuine attempt to settle the dispute - the issue you have is that there isn't really a dispute as to whether you owe the money, or whether they overpaid you, it is simply a disagreement on how you repay it. It has to be reasonable, if your offers are reasonable, and theirs are not ( eg wanting the whole lot by the end of the week etc), then you come out looking better in the courts eyes.

                  Can you post the particulars of claim - they might shoot themselves in the foot somewhere with a poorly pleaded case.

                  I'd still just start repaying though, as if you let them go to court and then admit/offer and even if you do get to do the ' SEE, told you I could only pay £58 a month' it's small beans as you'll have the additional court costs ( unless you can argue using the preaction negotiation letters - ie the save as to costs WP ) and the CCJ for 6 years unless you pay the whole lot within 28 days.
                  #staysafestayhome

                  Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                  Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Unjust Enrichment

                    Okay, so despite all attempts they are not willing to settle and have filed a claim, here's the POC. I haven't actually admitted liability in a letter as they claim, I think I'm probably screwed because I have made them offers and why would you offer to pay something if you aren't liable?

                    poc_noperinfo.png

                    I don't think they're going to settle, this is basically punish me because I knocked them back after them agreeing a salary higher than they normally would pay.

                    Any help around arguing I'm not liable by making offers will be greatly appreciated?

                    I don't mind paying them back, but I can't afford to do it in one lump sum as they keep suggesting and I want to avoid a CCJ, there's no way I can find the amount in 28 days from a judgement.
                    COMPLETING AN N180 DIRECTIONS QUESTIONNAIRE (SMALL CLAIMS TRACK) GUIDE

                    My posts here are based on my experience of a variety of life events. I have no formal legal training & if in doubt take professional legal advice or contact CAB. If you follow anything I write here you do so at your own risk & I accept no liability for any loss, costs or other outcomes.

                    Private messages are disabled as help is only offered publicly. I do not come on here in the evening, at weekends or on public holidays.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Unjust Enrichment

                      I think that POC manages to shoot themselves in both feet. As you said they are trying to punish you by asking for the whole lot in one go.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Unjust Enrichment

                        Tsk !

                        How did the offers go since the error was notified ?

                        They said pay back in full ...

                        You said .. can't - how about £24.60 month for 24 months

                        they said no, pay in full ...

                        You said.. can't how about £58 for 12 months

                        they said.... ?

                        We probably need to see the letter you sent that you and they disagree on whether it equals you accepting liability too.

                        You do owe the money, and it seems daft to end up with a CCJ over it, and although it might be a wee victory for you if the court orders £1 a month, or £24 a month etc off the back of your IE sheet, your credit record is still stuffed for 6 years.... I assume that is your priority ? If so you need to get a bit more concillatory to get this sorted without a judgment.
                        #staysafestayhome

                        Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                        Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Unjust Enrichment

                          I don’t think they’ve issued the claim to punish you, they’ve probably just run out of patience since the ‘payment incident’ took place over a year ago and they’ve not recovered a penny of it yet.

                          Perhaps things would have been different if you had started to repay the money even if it was less than they would formally accept, but instead they’ve gone for the certainty of a court judgment.

                          However I would suggest you listen to what Peridot has said about getting some initial free face to face legal advice and take a copy of the contract you signed with you in case there’s anything in the small print to help you file a Defence.

                          Since the sum claimed is less than £10k you should be able to fix this at the Mediation stage (if you file a Defence) which is legally binding but not a CCJ.

                          Di

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Unjust Enrichment

                            Originally posted by Diana M View Post
                            I don’t think they’ve issued the claim to punish you, they’ve probably just run out of patience since the ‘payment incident’ took place over a year ago and they’ve not recovered a penny of it yet.

                            Perhaps things would have been different if you had started to repay the money even if it was less than they would formally accept, but instead they’ve gone for the certainty of a court judgment.

                            However I would suggest you listen to what Peridot has said about getting some initial free face to face legal advice and take a copy of the contract you signed with you in case there’s anything in the small print to help you file a Defence.

                            Since the sum claimed is less than £10k you should be able to fix this at the Mediation stage (if you file a Defence) which is legally binding but not a CCJ.

                            Di
                            Thanks Di

                            The only reason I haven't paid them anything is that I don't trust they won't renege on the payment plan and use the fact I have repaid money to obtain a CCJ anyway.

                            The legally binding agreement at Mediation would be ideal from my point of view, I want the protection that I can repay what I owe and that they can't do anything underhand once I start paying.
                            COMPLETING AN N180 DIRECTIONS QUESTIONNAIRE (SMALL CLAIMS TRACK) GUIDE

                            My posts here are based on my experience of a variety of life events. I have no formal legal training & if in doubt take professional legal advice or contact CAB. If you follow anything I write here you do so at your own risk & I accept no liability for any loss, costs or other outcomes.

                            Private messages are disabled as help is only offered publicly. I do not come on here in the evening, at weekends or on public holidays.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Unjust Enrichment

                              Also, if my name was Joseph Bloggs they have issued the claim against Joe Bloggs. Would that allow me to request it struck out or is a shortening of a name not enough to claim they have brought proceedings against the wrong person?
                              COMPLETING AN N180 DIRECTIONS QUESTIONNAIRE (SMALL CLAIMS TRACK) GUIDE

                              My posts here are based on my experience of a variety of life events. I have no formal legal training & if in doubt take professional legal advice or contact CAB. If you follow anything I write here you do so at your own risk & I accept no liability for any loss, costs or other outcomes.

                              Private messages are disabled as help is only offered publicly. I do not come on here in the evening, at weekends or on public holidays.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Unjust Enrichment

                                A minor error in the name will not give you a defence. You can declare it and have the court record changed but you may prefer not to.

                                Comment

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