Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34

Thread: Unjust Enrichment

  • Share
  • Thread Tools
  • Display
  1. #1
    jaguarsuk's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    271
    Mentions
    9 Post(s)

    Default Unjust Enrichment

    Okay, so I haven't received a claim form yet, but the behaviour of the other party leads me to strongly believe I will and so I want to know a couple of things.

    I entered into an employment contract with "C" the salary was better with them, they expressed what a leap they were making to get me on board and that the head of their HR had to get board approval to pay me the rate given - very flattering indeed.

    Prior to commencement with C I withdrew from that contract offer as my existing employer matched the salary to keep me, also flattering. Unfortunately C in error paid money into my bank which was equal to the difference of my previous salary to new one. I believed the money to be mine and happily got on with my life.

    C later contacts me to tell me they have paid me money, I at that stage check my bank account to see whom paid the money and it turns out it was C. No problem thinks I, an explanation and offer to repay will solve this, all be it in instalments. Here's where the problems arise, C's HR Head flatly refuses and makes a demand for repayment much more quickly than I can afford. When I communicated that to him, he basically insinuates that I knew the money wasn't mine, which is not true and that I'm penalising their company by not wanting to pay it back.

    Angry at being essentially branded a thief, I cease contact with him after he sends an email demanding full payment immediately.

    The next morning after tempers have cooled, I email the Head of HR and the CEO of the company. I explain the lengthy process of recovery via the banking system or legally to the Head of HR in the hope of bringing about common sense and reaching an affordable agreement amicably. I explain the whole situation top the CEO.

    I hear nothing from either.

    A month latter I receive a letter from the Chief Financial Officer of their company, now quoting Practice Direction Pre-Action Conduct demanding full payment by a deadline. I obviously looked the PDPAC up to respond to him as this was a significant shift in the conversation to something more legally worded. I was able to point out a few errors being made by him, there were a couple of more letters, including adjusting my initial offer down after taking independent financial advice and then I heard nothing.

    In January this year despite them not writing to me, I wanted to settle the matter and again wrote to them to seek an agreement at the affordable rate, also stating that had they just been reasonable they'd be getting their money back and yet because of their behaviour at that stage they have had nothing.

    Fast forward to last week, I receive a letter from their "Legal Counsel," again citing PDPAC and threatening me with sanctions under it for failing to comply. Unfortunately the "Legal Counsel" hadn't fully complied with the requirement for the Claimants Letter set out in PDPAC, it stated incorrectly that it was my fault they had made the payment to me because I withdrew from the contract, they are seeking recover on the grounds of unjust enrichment and asking an unaffrodable repayment term of me.

    I responded to challenge that I was at fault for the payment, corrected a lot of the misleading statements made referring to previous correspondence, put forward an affordable repayment plan and have yet to receive a reply.

    Why I believe this will go to court? Throughout the behaviour of "C" has been obstructive, they have been insulting me and it is my belief that because they went to board level to agree my salary there's an element of dented pride at play here along with a desire to punish.

    I have gone over and above my obligations, throughout I have been well aware that they will win a judgement for the amount owing and I'm thankful I dodged the bullet of working for them. However I have concerns and a question. In addition to my questions, anything that anyone else spots that they can advise on I'd be obliged.


    My Concerns:

    If I admit liability for the error it opens them up to further legal action for damages
    Defending the claim might end up costing me more than just accepting it with the initial court fee.


    My Question:

    I can demonstrate to the court that throughout the claimant has failed to comply with PDPAC, what is the likelihood of the court sanctioning them under it? I'd ask for the sanction to be that costs and fees remain with the claimant, not included in the award.

  2. #2
    Kati's Avatar

    LB Team Member



    Joined
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    11,753
    Mentions
    1214 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    tagging @Ula @mariefab ... one for you??
    Debt is like any other trap, easy enough to get into, but hard enough to get out of.

    It doesn't matter where your journey begins, so long as you begin it...

    recte agens confido

    ~~~~~

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    I can be emailed if you need my help loading pictures/documents to your thread. My email address is [email protected]
    But please include a link to your thread so I know who you are.

    Specialist advice can be sought via our sister site JustBeagle

  3. #3
    Ula's Avatar

    JustBeagle Admin



    Joined
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    1,057
    Mentions
    180 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Hi @jaguarsuk, can I just ask a couple of questions in regard to your terms with "C".

    Had you agreed a start date with them? If so did you inform them prior to the start date you were not going to be joining them?
    Had you signed and returned your contract of employment to "C"?
    I presume that they had gone through an induction process with them which included providing your bank details?
    Did company "C" and your existing company pay on different days in the month?
    How much did "C" pay you and what were the terms you originally offered to pay back this money i.e. amount and over what period?

    I am going to tag @Peridot who has knowledge of pre-action protocol whereas mine is more the employment side of this issue.
    I do my best to provide good practical advice, however I do so without liability.
    If you have any doubts then do please seek professional legal advice.


    You can’t always stop the waves but you can learn to surf.

    You are braver than you believe, smarter than you think and stronger than you seem.

  4. #4
    Peridot's Avatar

    Legal Admin



    Joined
    May 2016
    Posts
    644
    Mentions
    167 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Hi jaguarsuk,
    It would be helpful to hear your responses to Ula's questions, but looking at your original post it appears clear that company 'C' have paid you by mistake. You have received the money and the company are entitled to 'restitution' of the mistaken payment. Restitution in this context basically means returning the money to C.
    In this claim the enrichment is the money you received and have evidently benefitted from. This is not about compensating C as with other areas of law but about restitution of C. The 'unjust' part of the claim would be the mistake that C made in paying you the amount under the incorrect assumption that the money was due to you.
    In the circumstances they are able to claim unjust enrichment.
    In my opinion this is a valid claim and I would not suggest 'fighting' or defending it. I don't see that you have a defence. It would be sensible to try and keep negotiations open. I don't know what offer to repay you made to C but it was clearly not sufficient. Bearing in mind you have now received a pay rise from your current employer would you be able to reconsider your previous offer of repayment by increasing the amount payable per month by reducing the term that you were offering to pay it over? I would suggest the sooner you settle this the better.
    If you do receive court papers do make sure that you respond within the stipulated timescales to avoid a judgment being made against you which would be for the whole sum, usually payable within a very short time. You could also have a costs order made against you, so the sum you would then need to find more to settle the order than just the mistaken payment.
    I suspect that if a sensible offer to return the monies is made, this would be accepted by C.
    I'll wait to hear your response to the previous question but as I mention, in my opinion you do not have a defence to a claim for unjust enrichment. You can of course seek legal advice on this from a litigation specialist. You may be able to get a free half hour appointment or a reduced fee initial meeting, to explore any other options.
    I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

    If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

  5. #5
    jaguarsuk's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    271
    Mentions
    9 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Quote Originally Posted by Ula View Post
    Hi @jaguarsuk, can I just ask a couple of questions in regard to your terms with "C".

    Had you agreed a start date with them? If so did you inform them prior to the start date you were not going to be joining them?
    Had you signed and returned your contract of employment to "C"?
    I presume that they had gone through an induction process with them which included providing your bank details?
    Did company "C" and your existing company pay on different days in the month?
    How much did "C" pay you and what were the terms you originally offered to pay back this money i.e. amount and over what period?

    I am going to tag @Peridot who has knowledge of pre-action protocol whereas mine is more the employment side of this issue.
    Hi Ula, thank you for your response.

    I had a start date agreed, I informed them prior to the start date that I would not be starting.
    I had signed and returned a contract.
    I had not gone through an induction, upon return of contract they asked me to complete a form to send with it detailing bank details amongst other things.
    My company paid on 28th and C on 29th.
    £706.80 and repayment of £58.90 over 12 months.

  6. #6
    Peridot's Avatar

    Legal Admin



    Joined
    May 2016
    Posts
    644
    Mentions
    167 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Hi jaguaruk,
    Did you receive a response from C when you said you would not be taking the position?
    So you received an additional £700 approximately in the one month as I assume you also received your salary from your current employer? Am I correct in assuming that you no longer have the £700+? Can you reconsider the offer you have made to repay the amount? Or would you be able to pay a larger initial amount. Is there any other way you can 'borrow' the money to pay C back?
    Sorry more questions I'm afraid, just trying to think of other ways you could possibly deal with this.
    I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

    If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

  7. #7
    jaguarsuk's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    271
    Mentions
    9 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Quote Originally Posted by Peridot View Post
    Hi jaguarsuk,
    It would be helpful to hear your responses to Ula's questions, but looking at your original post it appears clear that company 'C' have paid you by mistake. You have received the money and the company are entitled to 'restitution' of the mistaken payment. Restitution in this context basically means returning the money to C.
    In this claim the enrichment is the money you received and have evidently benefitted from. This is not about compensating C as with other areas of law but about restitution of C. The 'unjust' part of the claim would be the mistake that C made in paying you the amount under the incorrect assumption that the money was due to you.
    In the circumstances they are able to claim unjust enrichment.
    In my opinion this is a valid claim and I would not suggest 'fighting' or defending it. I don't see that you have a defence. It would be sensible to try and keep negotiations open. I don't know what offer to repay you made to C but it was clearly not sufficient. Bearing in mind you have now received a pay rise from your current employer would you be able to reconsider your previous offer of repayment by increasing the amount payable per month by reducing the term that you were offering to pay it over? I would suggest the sooner you settle this the better.
    If you do receive court papers do make sure that you respond within the stipulated timescales to avoid a judgment being made against you which would be for the whole sum, usually payable within a very short time. You could also have a costs order made against you, so the sum you would then need to find more to settle the order than just the mistaken payment.
    I suspect that if a sensible offer to return the monies is made, this would be accepted by C.
    I'll wait to hear your response to the previous question but as I mention, in my opinion you do not have a defence to a claim for unjust enrichment. You can of course seek legal advice on this from a litigation specialist. You may be able to get a free half hour appointment or a reduced fee initial meeting, to explore any other options.
    Please see my responses above. Upon their HR contacting me, obviously I checked my bank account to make sure and then as soon as I saw they'd paid me I rand him back to explain the situation and offer repayment. The discrepancy is that I thought my current employer would pay my increase in September, but they started the increase as of October 1st.

    I know they can claim unjust enrichment and don't dispute that I wasn't entitled to be paid, however they are continually stating that it was my fault and this is what worries me. It seems they are trying to manoeuvre me into a position of accepting liability and the cynic in me believes this is to claim more money from me.

    If I accept a claim, surly they'll get a judgement enforceable for the full amount, plus costs of their "Legal Counsel." I term them that way as the letter is on their headed paper not a solicitors and was emailed to me from their email address not a solicitors. I believe they have incurred no legal costs to date to discuss this matter.

    By defending part of the claim wouldn't I have the chance to dispute costs and because of the PDPAC rules they have not followed the opportunity to ask the court to leave them with the burden of court fees and not me?

    When they employed me they knew my only reason for moving was pay, basically I had a Fixed Term Contract end in March, took any job I could to have some money in August with a view to then gaining the salary I needed elsewhere. Luckily I landed on my feet and my current employer valued me enough to keep me. The salary I now make doesn't lavish me with disposable income to pay even what I offered, When I went to the CAB to go through a repayment option, they said to offer £29.45 over 24 months as that was more affordable in line with my income and expenditure. This is something I have communicated to "C" and they still don't want to listen.

    It would be nice to have the luxury of paying more sooner, but the reality is that I can't even if I want to. Hence my belief this is more about punishing me than it is about the actual money.

    I believe I have made a sensible offer.

    Thanks for your advice.

  8. #8
    jaguarsuk's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    271
    Mentions
    9 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Quote Originally Posted by Peridot View Post
    Hi jaguaruk,
    Did you receive a response from C when you said you would not be taking the position?
    So you received an additional £700 approximately in the one month as I assume you also received your salary from your current employer? Am I correct in assuming that you no longer have the £700+? Can you reconsider the offer you have made to repay the amount? Or would you be able to pay a larger initial amount. Is there any other way you can 'borrow' the money to pay C back?
    Sorry more questions I'm afraid, just trying to think of other ways you could possibly deal with this.
    Yes I received a response expressing regret and asking that if I knew anyone to recommend as an alternative to please let them know.
    I received my lower salary from my employer on 28th, then on 29th the £700 was paid in (which would be just short of the increase of my employer). I don't check my accounts daily, in fact I usually just go to the machine at the weekend to see how much is available to draw out once the bills are paid to give the missis (who is a stay at home mum) our monthly food money and then whats left after that.
    Edited to add: They contacted my nearly a month after the payments.

    I basically have no family other than my wife and children, so can't call on family to loan the money and the option isn't available with my bank, therefore a loan isn't possible. I have offered the best I can, but it's still not good enough for them.

    Thanks for your advice.

  9. #9
    ostell's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    2,636
    Mentions
    204 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    So basically you were expecting extra money in your account, it arrived and you spent it. There is a legal phrase for this, I can't remember it but no doubt someone will come up with it.

    Explain that to the company, with the correct legal phrase, and hopefully they will see that you are trying to repay it but you do not have the cash available to repay in full. A slight increase in the monthly offer might help

  10. #10
    Ula's Avatar

    JustBeagle Admin



    Joined
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    1,057
    Mentions
    180 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    So is the £700 the difference between your old salary and the new salary that was being offered by "C" and which has now been matched by your existing employer?
    I do my best to provide good practical advice, however I do so without liability.
    If you have any doubts then do please seek professional legal advice.


    You can’t always stop the waves but you can learn to surf.

    You are braver than you believe, smarter than you think and stronger than you seem.

  11. #11
    jaguarsuk's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    271
    Mentions
    9 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Quote Originally Posted by Ula View Post
    So is the £700 the difference between your old salary and the new salary that was being offered by "C" and which has now been matched by your existing employer?
    Yes.

  12. #12
    des8's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    8,205
    Mentions
    487 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Quote Originally Posted by ostell View Post
    So basically you were expecting extra money in your account, it arrived and you spent it. There is a legal phrase for this, I can't remember it but no doubt someone will come up with it.

    Explain that to the company, with the correct legal phrase, and hopefully they will see that you are trying to repay it but you do not have the cash available to repay in full. A slight increase in the monthly offer might help

    Change of position defence and surely arguable in this instance?

  13. #13
    charitynjw's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    12,352
    Mentions
    657 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Lipkin Gorman v Karpnale (1991)
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  14. #14
    Peridot's Avatar

    Legal Admin



    Joined
    May 2016
    Posts
    644
    Mentions
    167 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Thanks for clarifying the times of payment and also confirming that the payment received is in fact about the sum you would expect to receive following your salary increase. Did your current employer confirm your salary review in writing and when the salary increase would commence from?
    If a change of position defence or partial defence were available to you I do think you need to obtain some legal advice. Without all the details it is difficult to see where it may go. The fact that you have had a monthly salary increase of some £700, the Court may find it difficult to accept that you are unable to deal with the sum outstanding to C. You were made aware of the error reasonably quickly after it had occurred. Had you already 'ear marked' the increased salary for other items? With a family, that would be understandable but you would need to evidence it I believe.
    I am not sure why they are claiming 'fault' on your part. It may be helpful to see the pre-action letter that you received. If you can block out any identifying information and either post into the thread or e-mail [email protected] who will be able to redact the letter as necessary and post here. If you could let her know the thread it belongs to that would be helpful.
    I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

    If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

  15. #15
    jaguarsuk's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    271
    Mentions
    9 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Quote Originally Posted by Peridot View Post
    Thanks for clarifying the times of payment and also confirming that the payment received is in fact about the sum you would expect to receive following your salary increase. Did your current employer confirm your salary review in writing and when the salary increase would commence from?
    If a change of position defence or partial defence were available to you I do think you need to obtain some legal advice. Without all the details it is difficult to see where it may go. The fact that you have had a monthly salary increase of some £700, the Court may find it difficult to accept that you are unable to deal with the sum outstanding to C. You were made aware of the error reasonably quickly after it had occurred. Had you already 'ear marked' the increased salary for other items? With a family, that would be understandable but you would need to evidence it I believe.
    I am not sure why they are claiming 'fault' on your part. It may be helpful to see the pre-action letter that you received. If you can block out any identifying information and either post into the thread or e-mail [email protected] who will be able to redact the letter as necessary and post here. If you could let her know the thread it belongs to that would be helpful.
    Initially the increase was verbal and with no dates dicussed, only when I brought this all up to check whether they had paid me on the date that "C" said did they confirm they had applied the increase from the 1st of the month after. At that point I asked them to confirm the increase in writing and they wrote me a letter.

    Can I be clear that I don't actually want to defend anything, my ideal would be they accept what's been offered and we can all get on with our lives. I've made every effort, even writing to them after they stopped writing to me to try and sort this out, but despite having my position explained to them show now flexibility to negotiate a settlement.

    To put the increase into context here is my position, I had a fixed term contract, was assured it would be renewed and then my former employer cut their budgets. It was decided four weeks before the end date that my work could be absolved into the team I was working in and I was surplus to requirement. I then took at £700 reduction to start with my current employer as some income is better than no income as a stop gap. As our commitments are based upon a greater salary, obviously I was job hunting to return to that salary. During the month at the reduced amount I sold personal possessions to make up the shortfall. On gaining the role with "C" I was over the moon that the tough times were over before they started and duly handed my employer my notice, only after a month they'd seen my worth and wanted me to stay, so matched. The reason I stayed was that they also agreed to terminate my probationary period immediately, thus giving me both a salary and security for my family in one fell swoop, plus the role is permanent not fixed term. The £700 per month is not a luxury I have become enamoured with and I'm not some spoilt little so and so trying to wrangle out of paying back while lavishing myself after a pay increase.

    The increase was simply to bring us as a family back to the level of income I had previously and that our commitments were based upon. I can fully evidence my commitments as everything goes out the bank.

    The paragraph worrying me regarding my fault:

    "Unjust Enrichment
    As a result of your signing a contract of employment with us on 22nd August 2016 ('the Contract'), "C" paid to you the sum of £706.80 on September 2016 due to a mistake with its payroll system in the previous month due to the fact "C" had, in error, failed to remove you from its payroll system once you had provided "C" with notice on 16th September 2016 that you would not be commencing employment with "C" under the Contract.

    In the circumstances you are liable to repay "C" the sum of £706.80."

    I have typed that verbatim and obviously changed their name for anonymity. It's the As a result of me signing a contract that worries me, essentially it sounds like they are trying to lay the blame of a chain of events at my door.

  16. #16
    Peridot's Avatar

    Legal Admin



    Joined
    May 2016
    Posts
    644
    Mentions
    167 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Hi again,
    Don't panic. They aren't trying to lay blame at your door so to speak, they are just stating the facts. It's one department not keeping up with the other that has caused the payment to be made. As you say it is the in-house lawyer who has sent this to you. Probably because they think that hearing from a lawyer will hopefully scare you into suddenly finding the money. I think you may also be reading too much into this as far as sour grapes by C. They have messed up and want their money back seems to be the long and short of it but seem not to be open to negotiating at the moment!

    Your description of your circumstances above explains the situation clearly and I would suggest a response to the letter along those lines may help.
    I appreciate that you have probably already said these things to C but by responding to the pre action letter, setting out the facts as they have in their letter and explaining why you are not in a position to pay the whole sum back in a lump sum, would be helpful.

    Explain your family situation and the facts that lead up to this confusion. I would also explain why you believed the amount was due to you (having not checked the statement at that time), that you were on a fixed term contract which you had short notice would be ending, hence you applied for the job at C. Explain how once your fixed term contract ended, your salary reduced at your current company, and your job was no longer available, hence the application to C. You were then offered a new job on better terms at the current company, so your salary would return to the level it was while you were on the fixed term contract etc etc

    Explain the payment dates of the 2 companies and why you thought the payment was from your current employer, having only looked at the balance and not the bank statement and not having received anything in writing, confirming the date your employment with the current company would recommence. I would then state that you had hoped that this matter could be settled sensibly without the need for Court proceedings, having offered to settle at numerous stages prior to this letter and having in fact chased C to deal with the issue (if that was the case). Treat it like you are talking to someone completely new who hasn't been involved and may not have seen the previous correspondence from others you have had contact with.

    I would then set out the offer you are making to repay the amount they wish to claim. I would set out exactly why this is the maximum you can offer. Explain that you have sought advice on this and having gone through your income and outgoings that this is the maximum amount you can afford.
    You can say you have previously offered to make monthly payments but this was not accepted. Bearing in mind your change of position you have no other way of dealing with the issue. I would then give them 21 days to confirm their acceptance of this offer (why ask for their views?)

    I suspect that the finance dept has contacted the in house lawyer who will start the ball rolling. They may not have seen previous correspondence and are not aware of the full picture. However the in house lawyer will also be providing his advice on what C should be doing and will provide them with a cost benefit analysis no doubt on the cost or potential costs to C of taking any particular action.

    They may of course not accept the offer and insist on issuing proceedings. It is up to them of course but bearing in mind the facts surrounding this mistake, and the fact you have tried to settle the matter and provided you are able to back up everything with formal documents, bank statements etc then you may have an good argument.

    I would recommend that you do obtain some face to face legal advice if this does become an issued claim. It may not be necessary to have a lawyer acting in the whole matter for you but just to check you have covered all bases particularly in any defence. If at all possible, it would be sensible. You may find some other advice on the forum from people who have had this sort of claim issued against them, who may be able to assist further too.

    Hopefully this helps in the meantime.
    I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

    If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

  17. #17
    jaguarsuk's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    271
    Mentions
    9 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    @Peridot

    Thanks for the detailed response and I have indeed gone over a lot of these points in previous correspondence as well as my response to their Legal Counsel.

    I have made the offer and even said that we should enter into a written payment agreement for the repayment if it's acceptable to them to protect both parties.

    My initial post and follow ups are I suppose pre judging their response to that, whilst past performance isn't an guarantee to future performance usually it's a good indicator. Actually though I just need to see what their response is now.

  18. #18
    Peridot's Avatar

    Legal Admin



    Joined
    May 2016
    Posts
    644
    Mentions
    167 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Take a breath and wait. Often the hardest part I'm afraid. Hopefully it can get sorted soon.
    I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

    If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

  19. #19
    jaguarsuk's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    271
    Mentions
    9 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    So I have had another letter basically trying to turn the screws and it has a print of the screens of MCOL to show that they have completed and saved a potential claim.

    The basics of the POC are:
    Money paid to me in error
    I disagreed with their repayment proposal
    I admitted owing the money and made a counter proposal

    My question is - as I have made an offer of repayment does that mean that I would stand no chance of defending this with a Change of Position Defence? Have I accepted liability and this is open and shut for them?

    The reason I ask, if they do go ahead and issue the claim, I hope filing a defence might focus them to realise that they might get nothing and as a result be a bit more sensible about this!

    Edited to add: In Fact I'd go as far as to send them my draft defence pre-claim to focus their minds potentially.

  20. #20
    Amethyst's Avatar

    Site Owner



    Joined
    May 2007
    Posts
    61,254
    Mentions
    1850 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    I wouldn't go sending draft defences at all. You don't actually want to defend the case, as you are, and always have been, willing to repay the overpayment.

    You have made a sensible offer ( although personally I'd say up it to 10% per month if the £58.08 isn't set on worked out from a reasonable income expenditure form?)

    You don't want to get a CCJ over something like this, as you admit the money is owed, if you entered an admission and offer to pay to court, you would have payments set, probably at your offer rate, but you would also have a CCJ on your file for 6 years.

    Personally I'd send a letter headed ''without prejudice save as to costs'' with your offer, without any whys and wherefores, in the interests of negating the need for court action and further time and costs this will inevitably incur, simply making your offer and enclosing the first months payment and informing them the date of the next payment ( and then if they do sod all by then, send it - and keep records !)

    But that is just my thoughts.

    From what you have said about their POC draft, I'm gathering your previous offers weren't sent without prejudice at all?
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

  21. #21
    Amethyst's Avatar

    Site Owner



    Joined
    May 2007
    Posts
    61,254
    Mentions
    1850 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Sometimes its easy to get caught up in the principle of the thing and forget the big picture, that's all I'm saying xxxx
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

  22. #22
    jaguarsuk's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    271
    Mentions
    9 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Thanks for the response, you're correct the offers were not made with a "without predjudice" statement. Hindsight is wonderful eh?

    By offering repayment I assume I have surrendered any argument that they were made as goodwill gestures and now bind me?

    I thought, but of course could be wrong, that it's making actual payment that determines liability as you wouldn't make a payment to a debt you don't owe and might offer repayment initially on something you thing you might owe, then later realise you don't and make no payment?

    If I have learnt anything from this, I need to check my bank more and where money in it actually comes from.

  23. #23
    Amethyst's Avatar

    Site Owner



    Joined
    May 2007
    Posts
    61,254
    Mentions
    1850 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    If it helps, I've been there... and the thief labelling... quite publicly.... horrid time and I was farting about being all principled because I was angry, and almost ended up with a CCJ. ( and it was only something like £200 lol )

    Not marking the letter as without prejudice doesn't automatically make it not without prejudice btw... if that makes sense. Its the content of the letter - it must be a genuine attempt to settle the dispute - the issue you have is that there isn't really a dispute as to whether you owe the money, or whether they overpaid you, it is simply a disagreement on how you repay it. It has to be reasonable, if your offers are reasonable, and theirs are not ( eg wanting the whole lot by the end of the week etc), then you come out looking better in the courts eyes.

    Can you post the particulars of claim - they might shoot themselves in the foot somewhere with a poorly pleaded case.

    I'd still just start repaying though, as if you let them go to court and then admit/offer and even if you do get to do the ' SEE, told you I could only pay £58 a month' it's small beans as you'll have the additional court costs ( unless you can argue using the preaction negotiation letters - ie the save as to costs WP ) and the CCJ for 6 years unless you pay the whole lot within 28 days.
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

  24. #24
    jaguarsuk's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    271
    Mentions
    9 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    Okay, so despite all attempts they are not willing to settle and have filed a claim, here's the POC. I haven't actually admitted liability in a letter as they claim, I think I'm probably screwed because I have made them offers and why would you offer to pay something if you aren't liable?

    poc_noperinfo.png

    I don't think they're going to settle, this is basically punish me because I knocked them back after them agreeing a salary higher than they normally would pay.

    Any help around arguing I'm not liable by making offers will be greatly appreciated?

    I don't mind paying them back, but I can't afford to do it in one lump sum as they keep suggesting and I want to avoid a CCJ, there's no way I can find the amount in 28 days from a judgement.
    My posts on this forum are offered based on my experience dealing with a variety of life events. I have no formal legal training and if in doubt take professional legal advice or contact the CAB. If you follow anything I write on this forum you do so at your own risk and I accept no liability for any loss, costs or other out comes.

  25. #25
    ostell's Avatar

    VIP Member



    Joined
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    2,636
    Mentions
    204 Post(s)

    Default Re: Unjust Enrichment

    I think that POC manages to shoot themselves in both feet. As you said they are trying to punish you by asking for the whole lot in one go.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Unjust wage?
    By geoffrey in forum Employment Law & Issues
    Replies: 4
    : 22nd December 2014, 07:31:AM
  2. Police service: below any standards, unjust CICA
    By walsorim in forum General Legal Issues
    Replies: 4
    : 14th August 2012, 20:56:PM
  3. Unjust enrichment Teacake case concluded
    By Amethyst in forum Office of Fair Trading (OFT)
    Replies: 10
    : 11th February 2009, 11:52:AM
  4. Replies: 1
    : 31st August 2007, 08:23:AM
  5. `Unjust Charges`
    By Koenigsegg in forum News and Information
    Replies: 5
    : 13th June 2007, 15:06:PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Contact Us



© Celame (UK) Ltd 2017
LegalBeagles® are DPA Registered No. ZA158014
LegalBeagles® is the trading name of CELAME (UK) LIMITED ( 09220332 )
Registered Address: 25 Moorgate, London, England, EC2R 6AY
VAT registration number 206 9740 02
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.3 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Celame (UK) Ltd Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3
Copyright © 2017 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.

To find out more about managing your money and getting free advice, visit the Money Advice Service,an independent service set up to help people manage their money.

TOP