Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

**Kati** · 28th June 2017, 19:35:PM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

tagging [MENTION=26498]ploddertom[/MENTION] [MENTION=92682]lgfa92[/MENTION] ??
[MENTION=44843]lawman1234[/MENTION] ... have you contacted the council (Croydon) to ask why you have had no notification of CT arrears?? Or even when they date from?? I'd suggest you did that asap (and possibly ask if they would put your 'account' on hold while you figure it out)

xx

**lawman1234** · 28th June 2017, 20:06:PM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

Hello Kati,

Thanks for the reply. I have tried to contact them by telephone but they put me in a long que. I also contacted the Croydon Law Centre and they referred me to the Croydon Welfare benefits team, but unfortunately they're not open today and will not reopen until Friday. I went back to the law centre and the receptionist told me that she'll pass it on to one of their debt advisers for review. But I don't think she quite understood what I was talking about because there was some interference on the line. She said someone would get back to me by email.

I was hoping someone on this forum would have some knowledge/experience with the same sort of problem I am experiencing. I have also been in touch with National Debt line and they suggested that I file a complaint with the council. However, before I do that I need to know where I stand as indicated in my original post.

**ploddertom** · 28th June 2017, 21:24:PM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

It sounds as if a Liability Order has been granted against you for when you lived in Croydon. It is sufficient for them to send all communications to your last known address. You say you have an acknowledgment of you informing them of your moving - do you still have a copy of this as I would guess they are saying you did not notify them? Do you also have copies of paying your CT since your move as this will back up your claim?

**lawman1234** · 29th June 2017, 08:23:AM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

Hi Ploddertom,

Thank you for your reply.

Yes I do still have the acknowledgement that I informed them.

Due to the fact that I am on ESA, HB, CT Support, PIP,& single persons discount, I do not currently pay council tax to Sutton council. My latest CT Bill states that I have zero to pay.

As for council tax in croydon, When I moved into that area, I applied for CT Support together with HB. This was done before I moved into the area and at the time of when I signed the lease. The letting agents wouldn't have it any other way because they wanted the benefit to be paid directly to them. I received a decision notice for HB which said I would get full HB and that it would be paid directly to the landlord. Incidently, at the time when I signed the lease, the letting agents served a section 21 notice on my indicating that I would have to move at the end of that lease. The letting period was for six months. I moved out on 11/01/2016 as I was offered a longer tenancy contract by my current landlord. I was contacted by sutton council on 6/01/2016 and I viewd the property on 08/01/16. My current landlord wanted me to move in on 11/01/16 and so I did. .

There was no mention on the HB decision notice about whether there was any CT support or whether there was any CT which I would have to pay. During my short stay in Croydon, I set up an online account with the Croydon Council so that I could monitor benefit payments, letters and receive CT Bills and if applicable make payments in the event the council does not grant me CT support etc. Unfortunately when checking the online account yesterday, there is no record of any benefit payments or CT Balances etc. Also the croydon council has my personal email address and they have been sending me emails, although none of them have anything to do with council tax demands etc.

The first time I found out that I allegedly owed ct was when I received a letter yesterday from the Belfast Benefit Office which told me they were asked by croydon council to deduct payments from my ESA benefit. I have never had this sort of thing happen to me so I have no idea of what is going on.

In addition to the above, I wish to add that the total CT which the council allegedly claims I owe, is £135.00. This seems strange because the property in which I lived in was in the Council Tax Band A group. Also I find it strange that CT deduction have only started on 15/06/2017, one and a half years after I moved out. As I say I have no idea of what's really going. I don't know whether or not the Council have done anything wrong, but is does seem strange.

Sorry for the long response, but I hope it gives a clearer picture of what's happening.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanking you in advance.

**lgfa92** · 29th June 2017, 11:46:AM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

There was no mention on the HB decision notice about whether there was any CT support or whether there was any CT which I would have to pay.

The HB notice (if issued by the council) may show the amount of CTR on the same letter but it may be sent as a separate notification. What is key is the council tax demand notice, reminder and summons.

The only way you can proceed is to speak with council and ask for details of when and to which address the demand notice, reminder and summons were issued. Until you've established that then you can't say if it's been done correctly or not.

In addition to the above, I wish to add that the total CT which the council allegedly claims I owe, is £135.00.

Legally there's no 'alleged', the court have agreed that the amount is owed and granted the liability order.

Again, the only way to figure out the charge is to ask the council.

Debt advisors or solicitors etc aren't always the best to deal with these sorts of queries - they very rarely understand it and simply ask the council (I dealt with thousands of council tax cases over the years and it was very unusual to get someone outside the council who understood the process). Judging by some of the cases I still deal with the issues have got no better.

Craig

**lawman1234** · 29th June 2017, 12:19:PM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

Hello Igfa92,

Thank you for your reply and advice. I have been in touch with the croydon council and spoken to a very nice lady about my situation.

She confirmed that it was for the address I was living at in December 2015/Jan 2016. However, she said that I had become liable from only from May last year(2016) because the council had received a contract in my name in May last year from the landlord, BH Property Management Limited. She said someone opened an account with them using my name. She also said that I am currently receiving full benefit for that address.

I explained to her that I have not lived at that address since 11 January 2016 and that I am currently residing in Sutton and I notified the council on 12/01/2016. I also explained that I signed an agreement with Prime London Lettings in December 2015 who were acting on behalf of Finefair Housing ltd who were authorised by BH Property Management to sublet to Prime london lettings. That agreement was for six months and was served together with a section 21 notice.

She said I should send them a email setting out the situation together with any proof and she'll investigate the matter and decide who is to pay the tax.

So I am going to do that.Do you or anyone else have any advice on what I would need to put in my letter to them?

Your advice is appreciated.

**lgfa92** · 29th June 2017, 12:28:PM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

She confirmed that it was for the address I was living at in December 2015/Jan 2016. However, she said that I had become liable from only from May last year(2016) because the council had received a contract in my name in May last year from the landlord, BH Property Management Limited. She said someone opened an account with them using my name. She also said that I am currently receiving full benefit for that address.

I've seen similar happen where a managing agent has issued a tenancy agreement to the council with the new dates on but an old name - council then think the tenant has still been resident and continued paying everything... It was simply down to an error escalating and I suspect this is what happened. It doesn't particularly help when owners sub-contract to another party who then sub-contracts again etc etc.

She said I should send them a email setting out the situation together with any proof and she'll investigate the matter and decide who is to pay the tax.

So I am going to do that.Do you or anyone else have any advice on what I would need to put in my letter to them?

Your advice is appreciated..

I would lay out in chronological sequence the time at the address etc and confirm when you left. Provide them with any new council tax demands, tenancy agreements etc that you can and anything you have which confirmed the end of tenancy at the old address.

Craig

**lawman1234** · 29th June 2017, 14:50:PM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

Hi Igfa92,

Thank you for your advice.I'll get cracking...

**lawman1234** · 30th June 2017, 11:28:AM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

...THE PLOT THICKENS...

Hi Igfa92,

First, just to update you that I have written to the council and sent it by email.

Second I have telephoned the council again today and I spoke to a different lady from yesterday. She also seemed nice. I informed her that I have sent an email with attached letter and she confirmed receipt of it. I also briefly outlined the situation and she checked the account and said that I have two accounts for the same address. She said there is no balances showing on either of them meaning that I don't owe them any money at all. She confirmed that one of the accounts had been opened in May 2016 in my name, but that I am apparently receiving full council tax support. She said she'll pass my letter to a colleague and that he'll get in touch with me either by phone or email. She also will get in touch wither Housing Benefits colleagues and provide a copy of my letter to them. I asked about any liability orders, demands, reminders, summons etc she said there is nothing showing on her system.

Comment: This starting to sound a bit like an Alfred Hitchcock mystery hence the above title.

Hopefully I get this matter sorted.

Any advice?

**lgfa92** · 30th June 2017, 15:30:PM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

Originally posted by lawman1234 View Post

...THE PLOT THICKENS...

Hi Igfa92,

First, just to update you that I have written to the council and sent it by email.

Second I have telephoned the council again today and I spoke to a different lady from yesterday. She also seemed nice. I informed her that I have sent an email with attached letter and she confirmed receipt of it. I also briefly outlined the situation and she checked the account and said that I have two accounts for the same address. She said there is no balances showing on either of them meaning that I don't owe them any money at all. She confirmed that one of the accounts had been opened in May 2016 in my name, but that I am apparently receiving full council tax support. She said she'll pass my letter to a colleague and that he'll get in touch with me either by phone or email. She also will get in touch wither Housing Benefits colleagues and provide a copy of my letter to them. I asked about any liability orders, demands, reminders, summons etc she said there is nothing showing on her system.

Comment: This starting to sound a bit like an Alfred Hitchcock mystery hence the above title.

Hopefully I get this matter sorted.

Any advice?

A deduction from ESA can also be made for other things than council tax, does the letter state the rate or amount of the deduction ?

Craig

**lawman1234** · 30th June 2017, 21:29:PM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

Originally posted by lgfa92 View Post

A deduction from ESA can also be made for other things than council tax, does the letter state the rate or amount of the deduction ?

Craig

Yes I know. The amount being deducted is £3.70 per week.

I telephoned the benefits centre on 28/06/2016 and asked them why it was being deducted and what it was for. The lady I spoke with said it was for council tax arrears. The reference number given on the letter was my account number for the council tax account. But when I gave that number to council yesterday the lady gave me another account number and told me to use that which I did. However, when I contacted the council again, a different lady told me that the first account number was relating to the current situation and it was opened in May 2016. The second account number related to the period before then which included the time when I was living in croydon. They both relate to the same address . so there are now two accounts opened in my name relating to the same address but for different periods and both accounts have zero balances. I am beginning to think that the Landlord either resubmitted a copy of my original 24 month agreement (which was forfeited) to the council in May 2016 and at the same time reapplied for housing benefit & council tax support on my behalf, (thereby committing landlord fraud) or the landlord created a new fictitious contract in my name and then falsely submitted a new claim for housing benefit/council tax support on my behalf and the council accepted it at a drop of a hat. The only way I could determine this is by actually seeing the agreement which the council received in May 2016 as well as the housing benefit/council tax support documentation received by the council at that time. But when I asked them to provide me with a copy, the lady said she could not find anything on the system.This is why she has passed the matter on to her colleague who'll be in touch with me in due course.

As previously stated in one of my earlier posts, I find the balance of £135.00 which the benefit letter says I owe as at 21/06/2017 to be strange. This because I have been told that I became liable for council tax from May 2016 and I have checked the council tax band fro the property in question and it is Band A. Therefore if I owed council tax from that time it means I a lot more money would be owed. Furthermore if the council obtained a liability order, the costs involved in that would have been added to the total, bring the amount to a far higher figure than the one being claimed by the benefit letter. Incidently, I asked the council about whether there was any demands, summons, reminders and liability order etc sent to me and she said she cannot see anything relating to this on her system.

So, as I say: THE PLOT THICKENS.

Any further suggestions, advice would be appreciated.

**lgfa92** · 1st July 2017, 16:19:PM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

I suspect the person answering the calls may simply be a generic phone operator and not a member of the council tax team - it used to cause issues at my old employer because they tried to use the generic staff to deal with queries which were well outside their area of expertise.

The simple fact it's got the point of deductions being taken means it's got to have gone through a demand notice, at least one reminder and a summons + the granting of a liability order. The £135 matches exactly what Croydon council would apply for a liability order + summons - I suspect that you'll likely find that they went through the recovery process with a council tax balance and applied the costs. The balance was then cleared, perhaps by the council tax reduction being applied, but the costs remain due and can be recovered via the attachment.

Wait and see what they say for your email.

Craig

**lawman1234** · 5th July 2017, 10:56:AM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

Hi all,

Just to update you...

I have contacted the croydon council housing benefits this morning. I spoke to a man about whether or not housing benefits are still being claimed in my name. He said my H/B claim stopped on 21 December 2016 after receiving notification from the Landlord that I had moved out of the property on that date. I explained that this is untrue. That in fact I had moved out in January 2016. He said that the council would get in touch with the Landlord and ask for proof of when I moved out. He also confirmed that housing benefit was paid directly to the Landlord. He further said that the claim would be backdated to January 2016 and closed properly on that date and any payments made between 11 January 2016 and December 2016 would have to be repaid by the Landlord and not by me. He asked for my current address and contact details which I gave to him. He said the council would contact me if any further information or evidence is required.

I was also in touch with the Croydon Council tax dept on Monday 3/7/17 and I spoke to a man who confirmed that no council tax arrears is owed by me. I told him about previous contact and that I had sent in a letter on Friday last week and asked when | could expect a reply.He said it takes upto 14 working days be for they would respond to it.

I'll let everyone know of any further updates on this matter.

**lawman1234** · 17th July 2017, 12:30:PM

Re: Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

Hi All,

Just to update you all on the latest.

I have been in touch with the council tax team and I spoke to a man who advised as follows:

He explained the reason for the two council tax accounts was because the property at which I lived at was in fact declared an HMO. This was for a period between: " December 2015 and 8 May 2016, which covered the period during which I resided at the property. This was why the was a Zero balance for the firs t council tax account. This meant that the Landlord was responsible for the payment of council tax for that property during that time. However, as from 9 May 2016 onwards, the property was no longer declared an HMO and therefore due to the fact that the landlord had submitted a tenancy agreement in my name for the property to the council and they accepted it, this triggered the opening of the second council tax account in my name and therefore I was responsible for council tax from then onwards. This was because they were mislead to believe that I was in fact still residing at the property, when in fact I was not.

After I sent the council my letter on 30 June 2017, they realized that I was not in fact living there. The man confirmed that there had been a council tax liability order granted against me for the period from 15 May 2016 onwards. My letter of 30 June was also passed on to the Housing Benefits team.

The man told me that I should send an email stating that the the property had been declared an HMO between: 2 December 2015 and 8 May 2016, which covers me for that period and then he would nullify the second council tax account and delete it from the system, my understanding here is that he would have the council tax liability order cancelled. He also said he would write to the DWP and tell them to stop the deductions from my benefits and any payments already made would be refunded.

However this isn't the end of the story.

The council HB Department have written to me and told me that there is a substantial amount of money which had been overpaid. They tell me that they have sent the landlord an invoice to repay this.

But the landlord has now emailed me and wants me to get in touch by phone. However, I am not in the mood to talk to them. I suspect that they will try to dupe me into believing that I am responsible for the repayment of the HB over-payment or something. to that effect.

Any advice on what to do now would be appreciated.

Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

Deductions for alleged council tax arrears

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