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  1. #1
    roygoodbeat's Avatar

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    Default HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Received a court claim for the following:


    The Claimant claims payment of the overdue balance due from the Defendant under a contract between the defendant and HSBC dated on or around the Jul 22 2003 and assigned to the claimant on Jan 20 2015.

    Claim amount £13, 060

    This was a small overdraft, credit care and a loan. At the time when I defaulted I had lost my job. I offered to pay the loan at the time. They rolled everything into one account and claimed for the whole amount. At no time have I acknowledged the cc and overdraft due to charges, incorrect credit agreement and so on. I started to pay towards the loan but they gave me account details which turned out to be the whole amount. When I set up a payment, it was strickly on the basis it was for the loan only and disputed the one account. I have since ceased payments as I had been misled by HSBA collections at the time. I have not acknowledged the cc or overdraft for in excess of 7/ 8 years and have strictly said payments we for the loan account only.

    I understood at the time they cannot role into one account loans and credit cards covered under the consumer credit act.

    I will request a copy of the credit agreements and everything they have both to the solicitors and Arrow.

    I will have to submit an embarressed defence.

    I have almost cleared up my credit since 2009 and just got engaged. I was going to try to get back onto the property ladder as I have always had trouble getting even rented with my former credit history. I do not want anything to go on my credit recorded as I cannot afford at my age to wait another 6 years. I will be too old to pay for a mortgage. My lady is currently selling her flat so we can buy together. At the time I was diagnosed with depression, lost my long term relationship and the kids now live with their mother during the week. I will not have their everyone's future put at risk again.

    Any advice would be great.

  2. #2
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Have you filed acknowledgement of the claim with the court?
    When was the claim issue date?

    (Just crossing 'i's' & dotting 't's').
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  3. #3
    roygoodbeat's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Not yet. Dated the 15th. Only picked it up this morning.

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    Diana M's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Quote Originally Posted by roygoodbeat View Post
    Received a court claim for the following:

    The Claimant claims payment of the overdue balance due from the Defendant under a contract between the defendant and HSBC dated on or around the Jul 22 2003 and assigned to the claimant on Jan 20 2015.

    Claim amount £13, 060
    Is that all it said in the POC?

    If so it suggests they have no idea that the disputed sum relates to a credit card, loan and overdraft. Don't do anything to give them any clues. So when you send your CCA Request make sure it says section 77 - 79 CCA Request.

    Is it likely that all three products were opened on the same day of the same month of the same year? I doubt it.

    Di
    I am a Litigation Executive at Joanna Connolly Solicitors a firm which specializes in consumer credit.

    This forumís site rules donít allow me to give advice by PM but if you need to contact me please email di@joannaconnollysolicitors.co.uk . Our initial advice is always free.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any advice I provide is without liability. If you are unsure please seek formal legal guidance or contact your local citizens advice bureau at https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk

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    Diana M's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    What is the exact name of the Claimant on the claim form?

    Is it Arrow Global Ltd or Arrow Global (Guernsey) Ltd?

    I have a reason for asking

    Di
    I am a Litigation Executive at Joanna Connolly Solicitors a firm which specializes in consumer credit.

    This forumís site rules donít allow me to give advice by PM but if you need to contact me please email di@joannaconnollysolicitors.co.uk . Our initial advice is always free.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any advice I provide is without liability. If you are unsure please seek formal legal guidance or contact your local citizens advice bureau at https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk

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    Diana M's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Quote Originally Posted by roygoodbeat View Post
    have almost cleared up my credit since 2009 and just got engaged.
    Congratulations on your engagement!

    These are the things which matter in life

    Di
    I am a Litigation Executive at Joanna Connolly Solicitors a firm which specializes in consumer credit.

    This forumís site rules donít allow me to give advice by PM but if you need to contact me please email di@joannaconnollysolicitors.co.uk . Our initial advice is always free.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any advice I provide is without liability. If you are unsure please seek formal legal guidance or contact your local citizens advice bureau at https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk

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    roygoodbeat's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Thankyou!

    Its Arrow Global Limited

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    roygoodbeat's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Hi

    Have done my 77-79 request. Have also copies the CPR request 3.14.

    In summary, is this all I can ask for?

    On 19/05/2017 I received a County Court claim from yourselves of which I have acknowledged receipt indicating my intention to defend in full.

    To enable me to file my defence and/or counterclaim, I require inspection of documents you mention in your statement of case ahead of filing my defence on 31 May 2017.

    1) Copy of the contract dated on or around the 22nd July 2003
    2) Proof of assignment on the 20th January 2015.

    There is hardly any particulars on the claim form. Should I also mention to the solicitors that I have requested a copy of my credit agreement.

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Quote Originally Posted by roygoodbeat View Post
    Hi

    Have done my 77-79 request. Have also copies the CPR request 3.14.

    In summary, is this all I can ask for?

    On 19/05/2017 I received a County Court claim from yourselves of which I have acknowledged receipt indicating my intention to defend in full.

    To enable me to file my defence and/or counterclaim, I require inspection of documents you mention in your statement of case ahead of filing my defence on 31 May 2017.

    1) Copy of the contract dated on or around the 22nd July 2003
    2) Copies of all relevant Notices of Assignment, beginning with the original creditor through to the current assignee.
    3) Copies of all Deeds of Assignment pertaining to 2) above.


    There is hardly any particulars on the claim form. Should I also mention to the solicitors that I have requested a copy of my credit agreement.
    Yes. Enclose a copy (no fee needed for this one). Cross-refer the CPR letter & the copy of the CCA.
    Keep copies. Obtain proof of posting.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  10. #10
    roygoodbeat's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Hi. Just had a reply from Restons. Looking at the other forums, it is the standard letter which states you will have received a copy of the contract when you opened the account and there is no reason why you need an additional copy. They also state that the cpr 31.14 rules do not apply as the particulars of claim contains sufficient information.

    Still have not heard from arrow global regarding my credit agreement request.

    Have to file a defence is a few days so a bit stuck on what to respond.

  11. #11
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    If it were me, I'd stick to the script & file a defence per the forum example.
    Once you've done that it is more difficult for them to change their particulars.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  12. #12
    Diana M's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Quote Originally Posted by roygoodbeat View Post
    had a reply from Restons. Looking at the other forums, it is the standard letter which states you will have received a copy of the contract when you opened the account and there is no reason why you need an additional copy. They also state that the cpr 31.14 rules do not apply as the particulars of claim contains sufficient information.
    They can say what they like!

    Since this claim is for over £13k it's likely to be allocated to the Fast Track were Full Disclosure rules will apply. They will have to produce all documents in their (and their client's) possession and so will you even if they harm your case.

    This is how the FT proceedings work (it can take nearly a year from start to finish) >

    https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pr...rt28/pd_part28

    I can see I asked you some questions earlier in the thread - when you get a moment can you reply to them

    Also have you sent a Subject Access Request to HSBC? You'll need that.

    Di
    I am a Litigation Executive at Joanna Connolly Solicitors a firm which specializes in consumer credit.

    This forumís site rules donít allow me to give advice by PM but if you need to contact me please email di@joannaconnollysolicitors.co.uk . Our initial advice is always free.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any advice I provide is without liability. If you are unsure please seek formal legal guidance or contact your local citizens advice bureau at https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk

  13. #13
    roygoodbeat's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    I have drafted a defence based on some others I have seen here.
    Facts or the case (Do I need to include any of these?)

    Credit card was put into dispute. Have not acknowledged debt or made payment since 2009.
    Overdraft. Was put into dispute. Have not acknowledged debt or made payment since 2009.
    Loan. Was taken out later. However, agreed to pay the loan only as a gesture of good will. In all my conversations and in writing, I only ever agreed to pay this loan account number. This was after they rolled into one account. They gave me account details to make payments. These were paid until I discovered a couple of years later that they were taking payments off the rolled account, not as what was agreed. I wrote to them saying these payments were for the loan account number …… only.

    So they deceived me on this and payments stopped. Now the overdraft and credit card as far as I am concerned, no acknowledgement of this has been made. The loan for which I was sending money for was terminated by First Direct. That means payments being sent were for an account that does not exist, and were not meant for them to place into the rolled in account. All these are covered by different acts. Therefore if the account no longer exists, then they are holding money that should be refunded?

    Any advice would be appreciated as I only have a couple of days to submit the defence.

    Finally, how long can restons and arrow get away with these bulk claims and claiming without the documents and facts first. Should I draw the courts attention to this?


    Rough Defence:

    1. I received the claim [Claim number] from the Northampton County Court on 19th May 2017.

    2. Each and every allegation in the Claimants statement of case is denied unless specifically admitted in this Defence.

    3. The claimant has failed to specify the nature of the account.

    4. The Claimants statement of case fails to give adequate information to enable me to properly assess my position with regards the claim.

    5. The particulars of claim fail to state exactly when the agreement was entered into.

    6. The Defendant contends the alleged debt is statute barred by virtue of Section 5 of the Limitations Act 1980 in that no payment or acknowledgment has been made for over 6 years.

    7. The Claimants statement of case states that the account was assigned from HSBC to Arrow Global Limited in 2016. The Defendant does not recall receiving notice of this assignment. The claimant is put to strict proof a notice of assignment was served.

    8. The claimant is put to strict proof they have the right under statute to bring the claim

    9. It is denied that HSBC served any Default notice on the Defendant pursuant to s87 Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Claimant is required to prove that a compliant Default Notice was served upon the Defendant.

    10. On the 23rd May 2017 I sent a request for inspection of documents mentioned in the claimants statement of case under Civil Procedure Rule 31.14 to Restons Solicitors Limited. I requested the Claimant provide copies of all applicable contracts, deeds and notices pertaining to the account.

    11. Restons Solicitors Limited has not sent any of these documents to me and deny that they have to send these to me.

    12. On the 23rd May 2017 I sent a formal request for a copy of the original agreement to Arrow Global Limited pursuant to 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 along with the statutory £1 fee.

    13. The Claimant has failed to comply with S77(1) or s 78 (1) or s 70 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and by virtue of S77(4) or s 78 (6) or s 79 Consumer Credit Act 1974 cannot enforce the agreement.

    14. Under Civil Procedure Rule 16.5 (4) Where the claim includes a money claim, a defendant shall be taken to require that any allegation relating to the amount of money claimed be proved unless he expressly admits the allegation. Therefore it is expected that the Claimant be required to prove the allegation that the money is owed as claimed.

    15. I request the court orders the Claimants to provide the necessary documentation in order for me to fully plead my case else the Claim should stand struck out.

    16. In the event that the relevant documents are received from the Claimants I will then be in a position to amend my defence, and would ask that the Claimants bear the costs of the amendment.

    17. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief as claimed or at all.


    It is Arrow Global Ltd.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Arrow Global Ltd.

    Have not done a SAR but will do. Did one years ago along with a cca request. As far as I recall, not everything was sent at the time.

  14. #14
    roygoodbeat's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Need to file my defence by Friday. Could anyone check my last post to see if this is ok!

    Thanks.

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    Diana M's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Quote Originally Posted by roygoodbeat View Post
    Have not done a SAR but will do. Did one years ago along with a cca request. As far as I recall, not everything was sent at the time.
    To whom did you send that s 77-79 CCA Request - I'm guessing HSBC if it was years ago?

    Did they comply with that CCA Request?

    You say "not everything was sent at the time" but it's not clear whether you are referring to your SAR or your CCA Request.

    Do you have evidence (kept the paperwork) of that CCA Request, such as date sent and any response received?

    I can't comment on the contents of your Defence (I have to respect my firm's insurance) but generally speaking if you already have a s.77-79 CCA Request which has not been complied with then that may be relevant to these legal proceedings.

    This claim is for £14k so likely to be allocated to the Fast Track which means you'll be at risk of the other sides costs if you don't win.

    You need to get that SAR sent to HSBC pronto.

    Di
    I am a Litigation Executive at Joanna Connolly Solicitors a firm which specializes in consumer credit.

    This forumís site rules donít allow me to give advice by PM but if you need to contact me please email di@joannaconnollysolicitors.co.uk . Our initial advice is always free.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any advice I provide is without liability. If you are unsure please seek formal legal guidance or contact your local citizens advice bureau at https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk

  16. #16
    MIKE770's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim


  17. #17
    roygoodbeat's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    OK.

    Cannot remember what was outstanding. At the time a credit agreement (Only an application form sent for CC/ Overdraft).

    Subject access request did not have all the statements.

    I did have all the documents scanned but have since lost them. Still trying to see if I have paper copies as these contain the letters stating I do not acknowledge CC/ Overdratft and account in dispute.

    I suspect I will need to put in a basic defence until I get information together. The only thing I have is a scanned copy of the loan at the time.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Ok. Have found some of my paperwork. Still need to find the rest.

    The account number is the same as the bank account number.

    I have only ever received a copy of the loan application, taken out later, and a copy of the bank account application which has a small section for the credit card application.

    I also received this yesterday:
    We thank you for your letter and acknowledge your request for documentation pursuant to the consumer credit act 1974.
    We do not accept that we are the creditor as envisaged by the above statue.

    This account arose under an overdraft faciliy. Even if this account was regulated under the consomer credit act 1974, part V of the act does not apply to this facility and there will accordingly be no executed agreement.

    In addition we confirm.

    ē The account is in drfault.
    ē The total sum outstanding is £above 13, 000
    ē The amounts which will become payable comprise interest and costs, depending on what enforcement action is taken against you
    Please find your £1 fee

    This was from arrow.

    Need to draft my defense today, ready to send tomorrow.

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Your defence looks fine to me.
    You appear to have covered all the main points.
    If it were me, though, I'd also include a brief line re them denying liability under the CCA & returning the £1 fee.
    But I wouldn't go in to too much detail......wouldn't want to alert them to their mistaken assumption that this is just an overdraft.
    I'd leave that nice surprise for much later on!
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  20. #20
    roygoodbeat's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Ok. will amend and post.

    Have checked my paperwork I have. I have letters sent to First Direct. I have some corresponce from first direct/ hsbc.

    I cannot recall ever receiving default notices for the cc, loan and bank account.

    I did receive a final demand letter with all three accounts saying I had seven days in which to pay in full.

    Original Credit agreement request was 9th June 2009. Only ever had copies of application forms for loan and original bank account/ credit card.

  21. #21
    roygoodbeat's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    Have added a couple of things. Don't know if I should include the 9th june 2009 cc request outstanding or leave that for later?

    1. I received the claim [Claim number] from the Northampton County Court on 19th May 2017.

    2. Each and every allegation in the Claimants statement of case is denied unless specifically admitted in this Defence.

    3. The claimant has failed to specify the nature of the account.

    4. The Claimants statement of case fails to give adequate information to enable me to properly assess my position with regards the claim.

    5. The particulars of claim fail to state exactly when the agreement or agreements was entered into.

    6. The Defendant contends the alleged debt is statute barred by virtue of Section 5 of the Limitations Act 1980 in that no payment or acknowledgment has been made for over 6 years.

    7. The Claimants statement of case states that the account was assigned from HSBC to Arrow Global Limited in 2015. The Defendant does not recall receiving notice of this assignment. The claimant is put to strict proof a notice of assignment was served.

    8. The claimant is put to strict proof they have the right under statute to bring the claim

    9. It is denied that HSBC served any Default notice on the Defendant pursuant to s87 Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Claimant is required to prove that a compliant Default Notice was served upon the Defendant.

    10. On the 23rd May 2017 I sent a request for inspection of documents mentioned in the claimant’s statement of case under Civil Procedure Rule 31.14 to Restons Solicitors Limited. I requested the Claimant provide copies of all applicable contracts, deeds and notices pertaining to the account. They replied stating that they are not obligated to send this at this stage and have therefore failed to supply me with the relevant information in order for me to plead my case.

    11. Restons Solicitors Limited has not sent any of these documents to me and deny that they have to send these to me.

    12. On the 23rd May 2017 I sent a formal request for a copy of the original agreement to Arrow Global Limited pursuant to 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 along with the statutory £1 fee.

    13. Arrow Global wrote on the 07th June stating that they are not the creditor as envisaged by the above statute, and therefore state that there is no executed agreement. They returned my £1 fee and have not acted on my legitimate request.

    13. The Claimant has failed to comply with S77(1) or s 78 (1) or s 70 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and by virtue of S77(4) or s 78 (6) or s 79 Consumer Credit Act 1974 cannot enforce the agreement.

    14. Under Civil Procedure Rule 16.5 (4) Where the claim includes a money claim, a defendant shall be taken to require that any allegation relating to the amount of money claimed be proved unless he expressly admits the allegation. Therefore it is expected that the Claimant be required to prove the allegation that the money is owed as claimed.

    15. I request the court orders the Claimants to provide the necessary documentation in order for me to fully plead my case else the Claim should stand struck out.

    16. In the event that the relevant documents are received from the Claimants I will then be in a position to amend my defence, and would ask that the Claimants bear the costs of the amendment.

    17. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief as claimed or at all.

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    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: HSBA/ First Direct/Arrow/ Restons Court Claim

    If you are comfortable in progressing this yourself, fair play.
    But I think it would be remiss of us if we didn't suggest that you should seek formal legal advice &/or representation, given the potential exposure to costs if your case is not within Small Claims Track.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

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