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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    Hello everyone,

    I was dismissed yesterday at work for poor timekeeping and failure to hit financial targets, however, I have had no formal warnings about any of these things, and as far as financial targets go, there are people below me in the 'sales achieved' bracket that have had longer in the industry I work in, but have had no action taken against them to the extent I had yesterday.

    Tuesday, I was given 24 hours suspension, with a disciplinary set for yesterday at 10am - is that enough time to prepare properly?

    I have attachments to add to this story which I will do later on (just needing to redact certain parts) and I also have recordings of both meetings should anybody want to listen to them to be able to assist.

    If anybody wants to respond initially, I will tag you in to the post after I've uploaded my info.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    Hi @RJH ... I'll give @Ula and @mariefab a shout for you, hopefully they can help xx
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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    Hi @Kati, thanks for that.

    I'll be posting up the paperwork later

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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    Hi @RJH. My initial question is how long have you been with the company? Once I know that then I can provide some advice accordingly.
    I do my best to provide good practical advice, however I do so without liability.
    If you have any doubts then do please seek professional legal advice.


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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    @Ula 17 months, so I know initially I can't do anything in terms of ACAS? I'll get you the documents posted on here later today, and have recordings if you want them

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    Unfortunately, with less than 2 years service, you can be (fairly) dismissed without your employer giving any reason at all.

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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    Hi @mariefab, I understand that, however they have given reasons, and they don't stack up. I'll get the info posted in the next 30-45mins so you can have a look and see what your thoughts are.

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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    I'm afraid that it doesn't matter whether their reasons stack up.
    Even if you could prove that your timekeeping was perfect and you consistently set new highest records for sales, you can't claim unfair dismissal unless you have at least 2 years service.
    So, although it's understandably very frustrating for you; (unless I've missed something) there isn't much you can do about it.

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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    First batch of attachments
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_4292.jpg   IMG_4293 redacted.jpg   IMG_4294 redacted.jpg   IMG_4295 redacted.jpg   IMG_4296 redacted.jpg  


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    @mariefab is correct in regard to the two year length of service, although with anyone who has gone beyond their probationary period I would always advocate an employer follows a procedure to dismiss an employee with less than two year's service that is in line with best practice. However just one thing to check, is whether your employers' dismissal process is contractually binding. This means that if they have not followed their own procedure in dismissing you then there is a possibility of having a claim for breach of contract and be in a position to claim damages resulting from the breach of procedure. There is no qualifying service requirement in order to bring a claim of breach of contract. Most days employers state that their disciplinary process is non-contractual in which case this would not apply but it may be worth the check just in case.

    Please remember you that have a right to a minimum notice period as stated in your contract of employment which should be paid to you if they have asked you not to return to work plus you are entitled to all of your contractual pay up to the termination date, including a payment for any untaken holiday entitlement.
    I do my best to provide good practical advice, however I do so without liability.
    If you have any doubts then do please seek professional legal advice.


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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    Main bits uploaded now @Ula @mariefab

    I have been told now I can appeal, although I had to ask them for clarification on this as it wasn't included on my dismissal letter (they were told they didn't legally need to put this in?).

    My main points are:

    1) I haven't been shown any proof of consistent lateness, and the alarm clock (which is laughable) wasn't purchased by the company as part of my role, it was a joke valentines gift from the sales director. Flexi time was also offered to everybody else, not just myself.
    2) Regarding financial targets, there are 4 or 5 other people below me in terms of revenue this year, meaning that they are also not hitting the figure quoted, but nothing like this has happened to them. Out of these others, 1 happens to be a director, and the other has years of recruitment experience.

    These two points are just stuck in my head, there are possibly more, but feel free to ask any questions which might help you to help me as I need to appeal in the next 5 days.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Ula - I'm unsure on whether they have followed their own process to dismiss me as they don't give any copies of the procedure, just leave them posted up in the office. The notice period has been given as far as I'm led to believe by way of placing me on gardening leave until 10th May.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_4303 REDACTED.jpg   IMG_4304 redacted.jpg   IMG_4305 redacted.jpg   IMG_4306.jpg  

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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    Thanks for the further documentation. Not withstanding the fact that you have less than two years service since they have given you the opportunity to appeal then I offer the following points:


    1. The first letter was a suspension one pending an investigation which is all that it should have been. The investigation should have been carried out and then you should have received correspondence on the outcome, which at that point would have invited you to the disciplinary meeting. The implication from this letter is that they have judged the outcome of the investigation before they have acutal done it.
    2. A day's notice of a disciplinary meeting is not enough time to prepare. Under the ACAS Code of Practice it is advised that although there should not be a delay in holding a disciplinary meeting the employee should be given reasonable time to prepare for the case. By reasonable this is normally considered as good practice to be two to three days (may be longer dependent on the allegations and the documentary evidence provided).
    3.The notification of a disciplinay hearing should normally provide copies of any written documentary evidence the company is going to rely on for its case. It appears that you did not get any information on the days you were late thereby supporting their alligation of "persistant lateness" nor the full details of missed financial targets.
    4. Since they have followed a process then firstly the grounds on which they are dismissing you (unless stated otherwise in their disciplinary process) are not gross misconduct which is the term used when you dismiss someone straight away. At best there should have been a warning and a performance improvement plan put in place.
    5. Since they have followed a process then they should have given you leave to appeal and stated this in the letter.

    Just because you have under two years service if they have chosen to follow a good practice process then they need to do so properly would be my argument and they have not done so here in my opinion. If you do appeal then there is a process that they should follow.

    Another question what is your contractual notice period is this just one week which is the statutory requirement? Just checking they have given you the correct amount of notice plus you are also entitled to be paid for any accrued but untaken holiday entitlement.

    I hope this helps but unfortunately I do not believe that this will get you your job back and indeed you may want to consider whether in any case you would want to work for such an employer.
    I do my best to provide good practical advice, however I do so without liability.
    If you have any doubts then do please seek professional legal advice.


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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    @Ula

    No paperwork or evidence was provided to me.
    I believe the outcome was already decided prior to the meeting, they usually are in that place. It's no coincidence that anyone who gets called into a 'meeting' never returns.

    Is there a letter template I could use to raise
    The points above? It's not that I want to go back to working there because I don't, but I'd like to make them aware I'm not gonna lie down and take their spin.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    Here is a suggestion of what you need to cover in an appeal letter:

    Dear xxx

    Re: Appeal against termination of employment.

    Please consider this letter as constituting a formal appeal againast the termination of my employment for reasons of xxxxxx (state the reasons given in the dismissal letter the company sent you) as confirmed on your letter of xxxx (provide date of their letter)

    The grounds for my appeal are:

    State 1-3 of my previous post but change the wording accordingly to reflect that you are writing it and you are describing their action against you.
    Reword 4 to say The reasons for which you are terminating my employment are not serious enough, without previous warnings on file, to constitute such severe actions. Good practice would suggest that there should have been a warning and a performance improvement plan put in place.
    Reword 5 to say. Since you have instigated a disciplinary process, under the ACAS Code of Conduct, I should have been informed of my right to appeal the decision to dismiss me as it is essential to natural justice.

    If you wish to be accompanied at the appeal hearing by a union rep or work colleague then ideally you should state this fact in this letter.

    Hope that helps give you a basis for writing an appeal letter.
    I do my best to provide good practical advice, however I do so without liability.
    If you have any doubts then do please seek professional legal advice.


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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    Quote Originally Posted by Ula View Post
    Here is a suggestion of what you need to cover in an appeal letter:

    Dear xxx

    Re: Appeal against termination of employment.

    Please consider this letter as constituting a formal appeal againast the termination of my employment for reasons of xxxxxx (state the reasons given in the dismissal letter the company sent you) as confirmed on your letter of xxxx (provide date of their letter)

    The grounds for my appeal are:

    State 1-3 of my previous post but change the wording accordingly to reflect that you are writing it and you are describing their action against you.
    Reword 4 to say The reasons for which you are terminating my employment are not serious enough, without previous warnings on file, to constitute such severe actions. Good practice would suggest that there should have been a warning and a performance improvement plan put in place.
    Reword 5 to say. Since you have instigated a disciplinary process, under the ACAS Code of Conduct, I should have been informed of my right to appeal the decision to dismiss me as it is essential to natural justice.

    If you wish to be accompanied at the appeal hearing by a union rep or work colleague then ideally you should state this fact in this letter.

    Hope that helps give you a basis for writing an appeal letter.
    @Ula

    Thanks for this, the other point of note is that we all have photos on the website to show the team, however I have been taken off prior to the end of my gardening leave? Worth bringing up or not?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    Its a minor point but you are still employed by them until 10 May.
    I do my best to provide good practical advice, however I do so without liability.
    If you have any doubts then do please seek professional legal advice.


    You canít always stop the waves but you can learn to surf.

    You are braver than you believe, smarter than you think and stronger than you seem.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    @Ula

    Letter drafted, will send it from home later. Thank you for your help so far.

    As soon as I receive a response, I will let you know and see where we go from there.


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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    @Ula @mariefab, response received as attached.

    I know that at least one of the two members of staff who held my 'dismissal' meeting has been involved with the letter, as you can clearly tell it has been copied from somewhere with the myself, Bev, etc. part. Bev is the one holding the meeting!

    Also, why are there 3 people taking part from their side?

    Finally, I have started employment elsewhere since sending the appeal letter off, so have no intention of gaining my job back. However, the dismissal should be quashed at the very least in my opinion, so where do I stand on that front?
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    @Ula @mariefab

    Further developments, I've just received some information (on the attached screenshot), which shows that Sarah and Helen (the two people who conducted my 'dismissal' have been involved in sorting out my appeal, even though they have said themselves previously they are not allowed to be involved in any way.

    Can you advise where I stand with this, please?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Email Sarah to Helen.jpg  

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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    In terms of who should deal with an appeal then ideally it will be heard by someone senior in authority to the person who took the disciplinary decision and, if possible, someone who was not involved in the original meeting or decision. However in small organisations this may be difficult but even if there is no more senior manager available, another manager should, if possible, hear the appeal. Whoever hears the appeal should consider it as impartially as possible.

    I cannot say why they have chosen to have three people attending but I would guess that one of them is there to take notes.

    I would suggest that the further information you have posted should not have been sent to you as whoever did that has breached confidentiality and if this came to light would be in serious trouble. Plus it does nothing more than state facts about firstly the appeal meeting process and states an opinion they have had from ACAS based on the information they have provided to the person they spoke to.
    I do my best to provide good practical advice, however I do so without liability.
    If you have any doubts then do please seek professional legal advice.


    You canít always stop the waves but you can learn to surf.

    You are braver than you believe, smarter than you think and stronger than you seem.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    @Ula thanks for the quick response.

    In relation to the fact I'm now employed elsewhere, is there a point to me appealing?

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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    The decision is yours. As has been stated you can be (fairly) dismissed without your employer giving any reason at all and although you have been given leave to appeal I am not sure, since you have now found a new job, what you would want to achieve if you went ahead with it.
    I do my best to provide good practical advice, however I do so without liability.
    If you have any doubts then do please seek professional legal advice.


    You canít always stop the waves but you can learn to surf.

    You are braver than you believe, smarter than you think and stronger than you seem.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Dismissed yesterday........advice required

    ACAS is right in this instance.
    It's likely that they going through the process because they consider that their disciplinary procedures are incorporated into their contracts; as Ula mentioned in post#10.

    I'm not sure what you want to achieve.
    The effect of quashing the dismissal would be to reinstate you, and you don't seem to want that.
    I suppose that you could waste some of their time by getting them to jump through these hoops.
    If you are hoping that they might be persuaded to call the end of your employment something other than a dismissal, that would be understandable. Although, this may not be the best way to go about it. If you think that HR, or someone else with the relevant authority, would consider this; a phone call before the hearing could be the answer.

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