Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

[Diana M]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

But could I still try to use a statue barred claim seeing as welcome failed to respond to the hearing action in 2013 and so probably shouldn't have been put into stay by the court?.

I've been responding to your first post where you thought you could plead Statute Barred.

Your last post confirms that from what you say the debt was not SB by the time the claim was issued.

So you can cross that potential legal argument off your list when/if you file an Amended Defence in response to the late disclosure by the Claimant.

Di

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Fair enough on the statute barred option Diana.

Also of possible interest is that in my defence returned to the court in 2013 I make a Section 77 request and a request under CPR 31.14. IND failed to comply with this request and neither have they provided any evidence or claim in their disclosure to say otherwise. After my filed defence in March 2013 there is nothing in the disclosure until April 2015. Where only then, over 2 years after my defence and request did they respond to claim they have complied with the S 77 & CPR 31.14 request. Yet nothing was received by myself within that letter.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Well this morning I'm going to a branch of the bank that the supposed bank statement page came from in the hope that they can confirm my suspicion that it's fake, not issued by the bank and has false content. Not sure if this is possible for something from 2007 but has to be worth a try as I'm getting pretty desperate now.

[dogtired]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

In my long dispute with Welcome Finance who have never proved that the account they claim is genuine and have admitted that they cannot enforce it I came across this.
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/lo...-fraud-3757882

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

In my long dispute with Welcome Finance who have never proved that the account they claim is genuine and have admitted that they cannot enforce it I came across this.
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/lo...-fraud-3757882

Thanks dogtired, stories like that reminds me of when this all started years ago that I didn't take the matter seriously as I knew my innocence and looking into welcome finance brought a few dodgy debt claim stories.

Ok, so on the advice of CAB I went to a branch of the bank the bank statement evidence presented to the court came from in the hope they could examine it even after 10 years. I explain the issue to the bank, provide ID and they say very lucky for me they only just keep records going back that far on system. Even by a quick look before that they say no way it's a copy of a genuine bank statement issued by them. And they explain on a number of fronts why they claim it's not genuine and check my real records. They check the same dates and content on the genuine bank details and absolutely nothing matches what Welcome\IND claim is a genuine bank statement content wise either. I now have a copy of the genuine bank statement covering the dates in question and a cover letter from the bank confirming what was presented to the court as evidence of a bank statement is not genuine.

[Diana M]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

I went to a branch of the bank the bank statement evidence presented to the court came from in the hope they could examine it even after 10 years. I explain the issue to the bank, provide ID and they say very lucky for me they only just keep records going back that far on system. Even by a quick look before that they say no way it's a copy of a genuine bank statement issued by them. And they explain on a number of fronts why they claim it's not genuine and check my real records. They check the same dates and content on the genuine bank details and absolutely nothing matches what Welcome\IND claim is a genuine bank statement content wise either. I now have a copy of the genuine bank statement covering the dates in question and a cover letter from the bank confirming what was presented to the court as evidence of a bank statement is not genuine.

Great news!

Di

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Thanks Diana, just not 100% where I go with this next at the moment.

As when the hearing took place last Wednesday the WS & disclosure by IND was even presented to the court slightly late and done so in a way as the make it late so the deadline for discusure to add evidence or WS had passed. I never received the disclosure by the deadline, yet IND indicated to the judge it was processed (via a signed statement) and classed as received by default even if it would have arrived a little late had it arrived as claimed. Everything seems setup as to prevent me reasonable time to asses, respond to or add to in the way of additional evidence and amended defence. For which until disclosure was received I would never be in a position to do.

The judge last Wednesday agreed to adjourn the hearing for about 4 weeks to allow examination time and get representation. Though as I've yet to get fresh directions from the court or new hearing date I feel limited in what I can do next. Though I hope my visit and gained evidence and statement from the bank today will carry some weight to try and discredit their evidence to the point where IND have a legally unenforceable credit agreement.

The bank even mentioned if there was no income evidence in the disclosure such as regular payslips to prove income for the application then application should have been rejected anyway as they would have required payslips an income evidence!. Even bank says it sounds like likely identity theft\fraud

[dogtired]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

That's ok, just the tip of the ice berg I think.
When the parent company Cattle's were going t***s up there were sacking and court cases against a number of directors.
They allegedly had a fire and "lost" lots of documents and the same thing happened when they closed the branches.
In our case yes, we did have a loan from them but they messed up when we moved and SDAR revealed that they refinanced the original loan without telling us and that's why they cannot "prove" this one as they have no signed documents for this address.

Thanks dogtired, stories like that reminds me of when this all started years ago that I didn't take the matter seriously as I knew my innocence and looking into welcome finance brought a few dodgy debt claim stories.

Ok, so on the advice of CAB I went to a branch of the bank the bank statement evidence presented to the court came from in the hope they could examine it even after 10 years. I explain the issue to the bank, provide ID and they say very lucky for me they only just keep records going back that far on system. Even by a quick look before that they say no way it's a copy of a genuine bank statement issued by them. And they explain on a number of fronts why they claim it's not genuine and check my real records. They check the same dates and content on the genuine bank details and absolutely nothing matches what Welcome\IND claim is a genuine bank statement content wise either. I now have a copy of the genuine bank statement covering the dates in question and a cover letter from the bank confirming what was presented to the court as evidence of a bank statement is not genuine.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Maybe IND realised when they eventually got the "evidence" from welcome finance that there was a major problem with the authenticity of it what it was as well as missing evidence that would certainly have been needed to comply with the requirements for a credit agreement?. So when I asked for all the case evidence and particulars in my original 2013 defence to the court they realised it would never stand up to scrutiny of inspection maybe they purposely ignored my request, allowed the case to stay to such a point in the future where the likes of the bank statement evidence would be unable to be inspected and vetified due to age and try again?.

As they sure never wanted to let me get my hands on any of the so called evidence prior to the hearing itself to even try to inspect it. Maybe they never accounted on the bank at least keeping records locally for such an extended period to disprove that evidence they presented was false and they chanced it as 4 years since the original hearing was stayed would already have been a risk to getting the stay lifted request rejected?.

Whoever was responsible for this and the reasons behind it I doubt I'll ever know or find out. But hopefully this evidence alone will just be enough to to get the case thrown out?.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Right, looking at trying to get something compiled and sent off today if I can after yesterday's false bank statement proof that they have submitted false evidence and almost certainly knew. And a few other points (but not complete points) in basic terms.

1-The Witness Statement author states they have no knowledge of the conduct before the claim, won't be attending the hearing and signed the WS as a true account of case and evidence.

2-I have proof IND have submitted false evidence and even the content of the evidence is false, yet it's signed as being true and genuie via the WS. Is there a claim under CPR 32.14. Seeing as I can prove they have submitted false evidence and highly likely commited perjury almost knowingly to some degree.

3-They never provided their application\statement in the disclosure on what basis they applied to lift the stay on this case from 2013?. After some 4 years this should never have been allowed. So might be something in application to lift stay to indicate and or prove they have lied further.

4-They never provided their original claim form from 2013 in the disclosure yet included my responce and defence which proves a Section 77 & CPR 31.14 requested was sent and received. Yet this was never responded to and neither did they try to make any claim they did. But did say they responded to such a claim at a point in 2015, 2 years after received.

5-Evidence that would also have been needed to apply for such an agreement if true is also missing, such as proof of income via employer payslips. This could backup point 2, knowingly submitting false evidence.

Everything in this sure points to either identity theft\fraud or a totally false claim due to something dodgy someone within welcome finance might have been involved with a long time ago or other unknown reasons.

Either way, what the best cause of action?, inform the court by calling them and writing in stating and proving they have brought a case using false evidence signed off as true and genuine?. Write to IND, provide the proof, make a few pointers and invite them to totally withdraw and drop their case?, Provide to both parties (IND & court) copies of proof of false evidence citing it's not necessary my complete submission but something I want to add at the earliest point?. Or any other option I might now have?.

[Amethyst]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

You can put all this in a further/supplementary witness statement for the attention of the court manager, and send a copy to the claimant as well. Did your bank provide you with a copy of the genuine bank statment for the same dates ? Don't accuse of false evidence though just point out there are inconsistencies and you dispute whether the documents provided are accurate which draws the rest of their 'evidence' and witness statements into question.

[Diana M]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Have you received the court Order yet?

Does (or will it have) Directions about who has to do what by when?

You're understandably excited at what you discovered on your visit to the bank yesterday but this may be a case of more haste less speed. You've said the hearing will be re-listed in four weeks time.

From what you say the Claimant served you with late disclosure. Have you considered whether an Amended Defence is necessary? I've no idea what you've said in your Defence but if you want to introduce new legal arguments then perhaps you need to amend your Defence? Did you deny you ever had an account in your Defence or make a positive assertion of Identity Theft etc?

Without seeing the documents filed at court which you're intending to demolish or knowing the relevance attached to them (by the Claimant in their WS) it's not possible for me to comment.

Di

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

You can put all this in a further/supplementary witness statement for the attention of the court manager, and send a copy to the claimant as well. Did your bank provide you with a copy of the genuine bank statment for the same dates ? Don't accuse of false evidence though just point out there are inconsistencies and you dispute whether the documents provided are accurate which draws the rest of their 'evidence' and witness statements into question.

Yes, the bank provided me with a genuine copy of the bank statement for the same period. The bank also provided me with a letter\statement signed to confirm they have inspected it and what was provided to the court as bank statement evidence is not genuine. No way IND can dispute this I feelvand would be forced to admit they have submitted false evidence. The bank also said there is several obvious reasons before even checking to tell it's false and not genuine just by looking at it.

Have you received the court Order yet?

Does (or will it have) Directions about who has to do what by when?

You're understandably excited at what you discovered on your visit to the bank yesterday but this may be a case of more haste less speed. You've said the hearing will be re-listed in four weeks time.

From what you say the Claimant served you with late disclosure. Have you considered whether an Amended Defence is necessary? I've no idea what you've said in your Defence but if you want to introduce new legal arguments then perhaps you need to amend your Defence? Did you deny you ever had an account in your Defence or make a positive assertion of Identity Theft etc?

Without seeing the documents filed at court which you're intending to demolish or knowing the relevance attached to them (by the Claimant in their WS) it's not possible for me to comment.

Di

No, still not received anything from the court at all yet Di. When I called 2 days ago I was told that nothings been listed yet and they guessed the 4 weeks might just be the period to inspect before it gets relisted, yet nobody within the court seems to know for sure whats happening. So I have no directions at all to work with right now. The defence the judge wanted to use was what I put in my 2013 defence, yet this was clearly based (had the judge listened) on having never been provided with any details, particulars or evidence of the matter at all.

What I put in my original defence was to dispute the claim, state it was nothing to do with me, never having had any dealings with welcome finance, stated it must be to do with someone different or similar name as myself and stated beyond any monies mentioned that the has never been any case details or proof ever having been provided to me at any point. I also requested the documents and particulars via CPR 31.14 as well as a request under Section 77 for an agreement copy etc that was never forthcoming when previously requested.

That's pretty much what I put in my defence in 2013. The only thing I never did was to assert the possibility of identity theft\fraud, which in fairness I could never have done as I'd never received and particulars or evidence before last week.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

As a side thought, it's slightly bugging me that among the missing evidence is the original hearing claim from 2013!. The WS simply states they (IND) never received a copy?, yet they never kept a copy of it themselves when they first issued the claim but they had a copy of my defence from 2013?.

Why say they don't have a copy of their own initial claim in the WS when the initial claim form and details would be important I'd say seeing as it supposedly outlines their case, particulars etc?. Not sure, but certainly bugging me, maybe just something that might give guidance about default notice issues first or something?.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

To further add, after Wednesdays bank visit which totally proves false evidence has been submitted by IND which in itself I'd like to think could get the case thrown out. It still however bugs me how IND have presented an apparent signed contract containing my own signature. And I think I might be able to cast doubt on that to now.

As at the hearing last week I was stumped to see this for the first ever time (viewed the judges disclosure) as never set eyes on this supposed contract welcome & IND claimed to have had all along at any point previously. And in the absence of the original copy being produced (something that was in the hearing directions to bring original documents) I don't know if it was a signature that could have been lifted off something else and electronically printed or written in by someone else. All I know is I never signed any such agreement and whilst the signature might look similar at first glance, something wasn't quite right

But the disclosure also includes a very poor photocopy on my passport (which I'd previously sent in the past to try and prove my innocence) with a poor indication of my genuine signature on. Then I get my current passport to properly compare signatures, guess what, they don't match much at all!. Similar granted, but the last 3 letters on the agreement contract is very different from how I sign my actual name and is shown on my physical passport I have to hand.