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Thread: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

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  1. #1
    james9's Avatar

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    Default APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Back Story

    My girlfriend was parked today at the train station - as she does every weekday for the last few months. As the car park is extremely busy it is often impossible to find a space, and she has taken a cue from others (and herself also a handful of times in the past) that it was okay to park on the side in a none marked car parking bay.

    She was not obstructing anyone or access to anything, this was simply a place that wasn't marked out for parking, it is between a few regular spots (obviously taken) and a permit holders only section (but not part of this section).

    She paid for her parking in full before leaving and returned considerably before required, she consistently uses this car park and the revenue they gain from the ticket would probably be considerably less than they would have made from her in the next month.

    I suppose the point that left us a bit surprised was the fact they wanted to ticket her despite her actually making more revenue for the parking site as it was full but she still found somewhere suitable to park.

    Next Steps

    I have advised her that she should not pay it, but she is worried about the fee going up and having to pay more for waiting.

    I am of the understanding that she should wait until a letter is delivered to her and then appeal it following the usual steps (initial appeal declined, POPLA number after), is this appropriate in this case where she was parked wrongly (although to no detriment of anyone else). She is also NOT the registered keeper of the vehicle, but it is a personal car, not a company or hire vehicle.

    Thank you for your time!
    James.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    As a BPA member, it should be fairly straightforward to win at popla for a railway byelaw case.

    I'm with you, wait for the NTK and appeal.

    Get some signage photos when she's there though.

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  3. #3
    james9's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    M1,

    Thank you for the support, it's very reassuring to hear that I'm on the right lines as I've only done limited research today which lead me here.

    I will ask her to take some pictures of signs so that we can have as much information as possible.

    Thanks again to yourself and everyone else who makes this forum so helpful.

    James.

  4. #4
    james9's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Got an update here.

    We received the NTK, was hoping it would be out of the time frame, anything we can pull up here?

    1st image (left) is the NTK
    2nd image (middle) is the original PCN
    3rd image (right) is reverse of the NTK

    Please let me know if anyone needs any more information, I'm all ears!

    Thanks for the continued support!


    EDIT: some information I forgot to put in:

    We received the letter on the 18th of April.
    They addressed the keeper as "Mr" despite being female (lol)
    As far as I recall there wasn't any useful information on the back of the letter, but I will double check this when I can.

    EDIT2: After looking over the only image I have of the letter for any more information, I've just realised they've mistyped the postcode (as well as the above-mentioned typo) on the main address of the letter - it's addressed to a place a half mile away, which has the postcode X0 0ZY - whereas the postcode should be X0 0YZ. Does this affect standing at all?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ntk blur.jpg   pcn blur.jpg   image1 (1).jpg  
    Last edited by james9; 19th April 2017 at 20:12:PM.

  5. #5
    Kati's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    pics of the signs etc... would be helpful @james9 xx
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Hi Kati,

    I will do my best to get some photos of signage tomorrow, as we don't have any photos at the moment.

    Thanks for your help

  7. #7
    james9's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Update:

    I've added 11 photos of various signage around the car park to this album.

    https://postimg.org/gallery/dw8x89ay/

    My girlfriend parked in the permit holders area (which others often do, and it's rare to see an actual permit holder park there).

    Please let me know if you need any more information!

    James.

  8. #8
    mystery1's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...526#post636526


    Probably go with "the driver parked in line with the vehicles already there and caused no obstruction or loss of space."

    M1
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    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

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  9. #9
    james9's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Another update - so I went to enter an appeal online and view the evidence they have, but it won't seem to let me access the evidence, saying that the PCN reference is incorrect, but I am 100% certain it is not incorrect as I have re-written it and double checked it five times.

    They don't supply an email on their site, would I be best to search around for an email or ask on the phone for an email address seeing as I can't access any type of appeal online?


    Also, the appeal I was going to submit was the following, should I still use the line about the flawed NTK? And anything else to add in aside from the registered keeper's name at the end and the PCN reference and registration?




    Dear Sirs,




    I, as registered keeper, wish to invoke your appeals procedure. The driver parked in line with the vehicles already there and caused no obstruction or loss of space.


    I note that the notice to keeper is fundamentally flawed when compared to the protection of freedoms act 2012 schedule 4 paragraphs 7/8.




    Should you reject my appeal, please supply a popla code.




    Yours sincerely,

  10. #10
    mystery1's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    That appeal is suffice for stage 1.

    Try Us@apcoa.com although i'm not sure if they'll take your appeal. If not they may supply the correct address or phone 01895 27 25 00 and ask them.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  11. #11
    james9's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Thanks a lot for your support, I'll get a hold of them somehow and make sure I post up here with the result (although I'm sure we're all expecting initial rejection).

    As a side note, I was searching for how to appeal their fines and found this information online which I hadn't seen before, is this accurate or outdated?


    APCOA Parking Ltd also try their jig at railway stations which is again, government land which is covered by by-laws. Because the land is covered by by-laws, then only official government fines can be placed on cars. Because APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd is a private company, they have no right under the Protection of Freedoms Act (2012) to hold the keeper liable. They will obtain the keepers name and address from the DVLA, and post a Parking Charge Notice to the keeper but, as per the situation at airports, they cannot hold the keeper liable. All they can do is meekly ask the keeper if they were the driver. The keeper can either ignore the letter of demand from APCOA Parking UK Ltd, or they can write back saying that since the land is not considered to be “relevant land” under POPA 2012, they can only hold the driver liable and state “I am the keeper and I decline to name the driver”.

  12. #12
    mystery1's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    It's pretty much something i'd agree with and it has won a few popla appeals. It hasn't been court tested as far as i know though.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  13. #13
    james9's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Hi everyone,

    4 months ago we sent an appeal letter to APCOA that wasn't responded to.

    Yesterday we received a letter from a solicitor, instructing us that APCOA had asked them to recover the debt.

    I am now in very unfamiliar territory, can anyone advise me on the best option moving forward? I can post an image of the letter later on today.

    Thanks for your help!

  14. #14
    mystery1's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Please do. You certainly will be pointing out that you appealed and had no reply. (proof of posting ? or other proof of appealing ?)

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  15. #15
    james9's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Hi Mystery,

    I've attached the letter (without details removed of course).

    Yes, I have proof that we sent the letter. We sent it at the end of April and it was delivered next day and signed for. I still have the receipt from the post office as physical proof of postage.

    Please let me know if there is any more info I can provide that will help!

    Thanks again,
    James.




  16. #16
    mystery1's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Dear Dipstick,

    I have appealed this matter and i am currently awaiting the result. Your client should not be pursuing this matter without the appeal having been decided.

    Yours etc


    See if they tell you you didn't appeal or you lost and the result must have gone awol. They'll look might silly if the former and you then produce proof to the contrary.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  17. #17
    james9's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Once again, I feel like an idiot.

    As it turns out, they did send us a rejection letter, but a family member had sorted out the post whilst we were away and now we've found it. I tried putting in the POPLA code (although 6 weeks out of date) and, anticlimactically, it has expired.

    Now it makes sense as to why it has gone to collections, whats our best option going forward? Could we feign ignorance and state we didn't receive the letter (it wasn't signed for so there isn't any "proof" we've got it)?

    My aim here is to be able to enter the POPLA appeal process, I can hardly expect our family member to pay the accrued £100 because they moved our post around, and it feels like a real kick in the teeth paying it.

    Any advice is appreciated as usual (I now owe you a debt of gratitude).

    Thanks,
    James.

  18. #18
    mystery1's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Now it makes sense as to why it has gone to collections, whats our best option going forward? Could we feign ignorance and state we didn't receive the letter (it wasn't signed for so there isn't any "proof" we've got it)?
    If it were ever to go to court this could bite you. I wouldn't.

    My aim here is to be able to enter the POPLA appeal process, I can hardly expect our family member to pay the accrued £100 because they moved our post around, and it feels like a real kick in the teeth paying it.
    Forget popla. It's gone.

    You don't have to pay. They may try court but for train stations, bylaws usually apply and they really dislike taking bylaw cases to court primarily because they want to use civil courts but bylaws are criminal and they have a huge issue, legally speaking.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  19. #19
    james9's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    So what would you suggest to do going forward? Just to ignore any and all contact?

    If so, when would this be dropped? I imagine it's possibly indefinite?

    Thanks again for all your help,
    James.

  20. #20
    mystery1's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Quote Originally Posted by james9 View Post
    So what would you suggest to do going forward? Just to ignore any and all contact?

    If so, when would this be dropped? I imagine it's possibly indefinite?

    Thanks again for all your help,
    James.

    I would ignore anything that is not a letter before action or court papers.

    Bylaws require prosecution in 6 months where as a civil case has a time limit of 6 years.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  21. #21
    james9's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Hi Mystery,

    Will be following your advice, just to clarity, a 'letter before action' document is a specific letter that's required to be sent out before court action? What would you suggest we do if this letter comes through? Pay up?

    In terms of 6 months to prosecute, is that since the date of the incident?

    Thanks again for your help,
    James.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    a 'letter before action' document is a specific letter that's required to be sent out before court action?
    Yes and no. It's required by the rules but the sanction for not doing so (or even doing so very badly) lies in costs, so in practice, it doesn't mean much.

    What would you suggest we do if this letter comes through? Pay up?
    You could, but as we never saw the signs i'm still wondering what they said. It also looks like she was fractionally outside the lines so a potential "de minimis" argument (the court should not be bothered with matters so inconsequential that normally nobody would give a shit (roughly))

    If the driver and registered keeper are different then i certainly wouldn't pay.

    In terms of 6 months to prosecute, is that since the date of the incident?
    Yes.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  23. #23
    james9's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Quote Originally Posted by mystery1 View Post
    Yes and no. It's required by the rules but the sanction for not doing so (or even doing so very badly) lies in costs, so in practice, it doesn't mean much.

    You could, but as we never saw the signs i'm still wondering what they said. It also looks like she was fractionally outside the lines so a potential "de minimis" argument (the court should not be bothered with matters so inconsequential that normally nobody would give a shit (roughly))

    If the driver and registered keeper are different then i certainly wouldn't pay.

    You are correct about the registered keeper and driver were different, so that helps, although I think I posted signs from the car park (may have been removed as it's been 5.5 months since originally posting), I suppose it doesn't matter much now.

    As it is only 2 weeks until the 6-month mark, I suppose we will keep our eyes open until then. Would we have any option to get the solicitors off our backs, if past the 6-month mark they are no longer able to open a court case? This isn't exactly an issue but would be nice to have one less spammer sending mail to our house.


    Also Mystery1, how can I ever repay you for your help? Is there some way I can show appreciation for your help in not only this case but also the prior case which we had dropped thanks to you?


    James.

  24. #24
    mystery1's Avatar

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    Default Re: APCOA - Manchester Victoria Train Station PCN

    Would we have any option to get the solicitors off our backs, if past the 6-month mark they are no longer able to open a court case?
    It'd be rare that they showed any interest in a criminal case under the bylaws. There is little you can do about all the letters they will send.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

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