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  1. #1
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    Default Resident parking - IPC

    Hi all,

    I wonder if anyone can help. I live in a flat with no on-street parking, only permit-based parking in the carpark (as residents, we get as many free permits for us and visitors as we want, the building manager posts them to us). My partner & I have had five PCNs in a few months, for us and visitors, all with valid permits but when we appeal the parking company always claims that they weren't properly displayed somehow. We've paid out for three to save the hassle, but we've had two more and it's becoming so that we can't have anyone visit us anymore, so we really can't afford it now!

    When we appealed the latest, asking what was wrong with the permit, the company were predictably unhelpful and sent the letter that I've attached to this post. They don't say exactly what's wrong, but they seem to be implying that we used the ticket for multiple days and made changes to it. They included a photo of the permit, which to be honest does look like there's some smudging, presumably some ink coming through from writing another permit on top of it or something. It's clearly written in pen, though, and we have the original permit. Also, we have tried to ask the owners to cancel them but can't find the building owners to contact, as the building managing company (who give us the permits) refuses to get involved or to tell us who has the contract with the parking company.

    The appeals route is the IPC's IAS, and looking on these forums, it sounds like they're not exactly the kind of listen to reason. I've had a look at advice given to other people here, but can't find anything that seems like the same situation. Does anyone have any advice on what to write for our IAS appeal?

    Also attached: pictures of the sign & a blank permit (as I can't anonymise the actual permit). Thankyou very much in advance to anyone who helps!

    -kite

    Edit: my partner tells me that she thinks the visitors told the company who was driving, which is unfortunate.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails BsParking.jpg   BsParkingPermit.jpg   BsParkingSign.jpg  
    Last edited by kite; 3rd March 2017 at 13:31:PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    What does your lease/tenancy agreement say about parking ?

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co...l-parking.html

    Also the signs are potentially forbidding (particularly in visitors cases).

    http://nebula.wsimg.com/b84a6ffd1e35...&alloworigin=1

    M1
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    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    Hi M1, thanks for your reply.

    I've just looked at our tenancy agreement, it doesn't mention parking at all (it's interesting that I've only just noticed this! I suppose it's hard to notice something that's not there...). Although there is one more detail that I just remembered! The management company have put a map up in the foyer of which parking spaces are assigned to which flats, and in this case the visitor wasn't parked in the communal area, they were parked in our assigned space (with our permission obviously). I'm not sure if that matters.

    Is it the "valid permit holders only" that makes the signs forbidding? From your link I understand that if the signs forbid parking then there's no contract, so they can't ask for payment, but I don't think I understand how they might be forbidding.

    -kite

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    If they were parked in your space, which is presumably your property within the terms of the lease, what right does the parking company have to police anyone parking in that private space?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    Hi Arcadian! Good point. The space allocation isn't in our tenancy agreement unfortunately, but I could ask our landlord if it's in his lease, if that's what you mean?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    Quote Originally Posted by kite View Post
    Hi Arcadian! Good point. The space allocation isn't in our tenancy agreement unfortunately, but I could ask our landlord if it's in his lease, if that's what you mean?
    Yes, that would do. If it's his property and they don't have his authority to control it, what are they acting upon?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    The questions i have are, at what point were you given permission to park and what rules were imposed ?

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    Fair point, thanks very much!

    So, I realise that the appeal probably doesn't matter because it's the IPC, but we may as well do it properly. I think I'm writing in our appeal:-
    I'd like to appeal this Parking Charge Notice on the following points:-
    1. The notice references the instructions printed on the day permit, which read "this permit must be filled out fully and correctly in blue or black ink and displayed clearly in full view in the vehicle's front windscreen. Any amendments and/or alterations will render the permit void and a charge levied". All of these instructions were complied with, so the ticket was valid.
    2. The parking space is assigned to the flat by building management acting on behalf of the landowners (and, if the landlord does have it, the space is under leasehold to the landlord). As such, Vehicle Control Services does not have authority to control access.
    3. Vehicle Control Services does not have assignment of title of the land in the carpark. As such, I do not believe that the operator has the necessary legal capacity to enter into a contract with a driver of a vehicle parking in the car park, or indeed to allege a breach of contract. Accordingly, I require sight of a full copy of the actual contemporaneous, signed and dated site agreement/contract with the landowner (and not just a signed slip of paper saying that it exists).
    4. The signage forbids parking without a valid permit. If Vehicle Control Services alleges that the permit was not valid, then there cannot be a contract, as in that case the signage forbids parking.
    5. If the charge is supposed to be a penalty for breach of contract, it does not represent a fair pre-estimate of loss. Day permits are free to residents, the operator has not lost anything. ParkingEye vs Beavis does not apply to residential parking as shown by Jopson vs Homeguard 2016.

    Or something like that? Any additions or suggestions, anyone?
    -kite

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    Oh sorry M1, I didn't see that you'd posted while I was writing. We were told by our landlord when we signed up for the flat that we could park there, and to call the managing company whenever we needed more visitors permits. The managing company have always given us permits whenever we've asked. There were no conditions but also nothing written down.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    Quote Originally Posted by kite View Post
    Fair point, thanks very much!

    So, I realise that the appeal probably doesn't matter because it's the IPC, but we may as well do it properly. I think I'm writing in our appeal:-
    I'd like to appeal this Parking Charge Notice on the following points:-
    1. The notice references the instructions printed on the day permit, which read "this permit must be filled out fully and correctly in blue or black ink and displayed clearly in full view in the vehicle's front windscreen. Any amendments and/or alterations will render the permit void and a charge levied". All of these instructions were complied with, so the ticket was valid.
    2. The parking space is assigned to the flat by building management acting on behalf of the landowners (and, if the landlord does have it, the space is under leasehold to the landlord). As such, Vehicle Control Services does not have authority to control access.
    3. Vehicle Control Services does not have assignment of title of the land in the carpark. As such, I do not believe that the operator has the necessary legal capacity to enter into a contract with a driver of a vehicle parking in the car park, or indeed to allege a breach of contract. Accordingly, I require sight of a full copy of the actual contemporaneous, signed and dated site agreement/contract with the landowner (and not just a signed slip of paper saying that it exists).
    4. The signage forbids parking without a valid permit. If Vehicle Control Services alleges that the permit was not valid, then there cannot be a contract, as in that case the signage forbids parking.
    5. If the charge is supposed to be a penalty for breach of contract, it does not represent a fair pre-estimate of loss. Day permits are free to residents, the operator has not lost anything. ParkingEye vs Beavis does not apply to residential parking as shown by Jopson vs Homeguard 2016.

    Or something like that? Any additions or suggestions, anyone?
    -kite
    When you use the IAS appeals system it's not at all like popla. The IAS make you prove you should win an appeal rather than make generalisations that make the parking operator prove they were justified to get your dosh. Your appeal has less chance than normal and normal is pretty low.

    There were no conditions but also nothing written down.
    1. If there were no conditions why were permits spoken about ?

    2. For a housing agreement you make it sound like you agreed with a mate down the pub.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    Well, it sounds like you think it's not worth appealing. Fair enough - thanks for your help all the same! :-)

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    I never said that. However, without something you can back up then you'll never win.

    It really boils down to the original agreement for parking, however that came about.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    Sorry about the slight delay, as you said that it comes down to the agreement, I've been doing what I can to investigate the agreement and also see if the landowners know about this kind of practice. Not much luck so far, as our landlord leases from a management company, which contracts another company to deal with everything, and they're all quite keen on deflecting things...

    So tenants have the right to visitor day permits (as used) to allow visitors to park on the land (confirmed by email). I have a plan from the management company of which spaces are assigned to a flat (which I think can show that the car was in our space) but it's not in our tenancy agreement. It might be in our landlord's lease (he's not very good at getting back to us) but I'm not sure if that means anything.

    In the meantime, VCS responded to our appeal. For the sake of everyone's sanity I'll summarise (just say if you want me to copy it all).
    Quote Originally Posted by operator's response
    The operator is seeking keeper liability in accordance with PoFA. Ticket was issued on [wrong date]. The charge is based on contract.
    1. It's private land that people can park on under conditions
    2. There are signs displayed at the entrance, and around the area.
    3. Authorised users are given permits.
    4. Patrol officers don't put PCNs on the car, as it's ANPR [note: it's not ANPR unless the cameras are well-hidden]
    5. A "call to action" card is put on the car.
    6. The patrol officer observed the car for over 30min and wrote that "guest permit date had been changed".
    7. Photos have been submitted showing the car adjacent to sign without a permit.
    8. Photos show that the permit has been altered.
    9. "The appellant has raised the issue that we do not have the required authority to operate on this site. We would refer the Adjudicator to the signs which form the basis of this charge. It will be noted that the charge arises out of a relationship in contract and that we are the principal (not an agent) in the contract. Whilst we maintain that we do in fact have the authority of the landowner to operate upon this site (being the principal in the contract), the existence of this document has no legal bearing on the contract with the motorist. See Vehicle Control Services v HMRC [2013] EWCA Civ 186, para 22 per Lewison LJ"
    10&11. The motorist didn't comply with conditions so became liable for the charge.
    I've drafted a response, what do you think?
    In response to point 2 of the operator response:-
    This appears to be incorrect. No sign is visible from the entrance (please see photo X, of the view from the entrance). Also, no signs are lit (please see photo Y, of a sign taken at night).

    In response to point 4 of the operator response:-
    The operator has reported that a notice to keeper (non-ANPR) was sent, but says that their practice is in line with procedures for ANPR. To clarify, this carpark does not appear to have ANPR cameras so standard procedures for ANPR should not apply.

    In response to point 7 of the operator response:-
    The operator claims that the photos show the car parked adjacent to a sign without permit displayed. This is, yet again, incorrect, as the photos show the car parked with a permit displayed.

    In response to point 6 & 8:-
    The “patrol officer” recorded that the permit date had been changed, which it had not. It turns out that it’s quite difficult to write neatly in the dark on a car dashboard, hence the awful scratches everywhere. The operator claims that the “patrol officer” observed the car for 41 minutes, but it is noted that all of the photos provided are within a two-minute period. They are also about two minutes before I came out to drive the car away. Presumably the operator has evidence for this claim; as otherwise it comes under the 30-minute grace period. I look forward to the operator supplying this evidence.

    In response to point 9 (I’m sorry for the legalese here, I had to go and read the case):-
    The operator cites VCS v HMRC 2013. This is a case where VCS issued paper permits themselves and was charging drivers for damages for breach of contract. There are other cases. In ParkingEye v Somerfield [2012 EWCA Civ 1338] ParkingEye did not issue permits and was found not to be the principal. VCS does not have a hand in issuing permits in Victoria Quays, which are issued by the managing agents of the landowner. A copy of the contract would allow a decision on which case is more closely related to this incident.

    In addition, and to add to my point 2 in the original appeal, I have attached pictures Z of the parking space allocation provided by the building management, which shows that the parking space is assigned to our flat.
    Any advice on this would be hugely appreciated!

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    In response to point 4 of the operator response:-
    The operator has reported that a notice to keeper (non-ANPR) was sent, but says that their practice is in line with procedures for ANPR. To clarify, this carpark does not appear to have ANPR cameras so standard procedures for ANPR should not apply. In addition to this the operator switchs their evidence to whatever suits their point. One minute the car park is ANPR the next a patrol officer did x,y,x. The evidence being unreliable should be discounted.


    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    Great, I'll change that bit then. Thankyou very much for all your help so far, M1. I have to admit, it seems a bit ridiculous that the operator's argument isn't even consistent with itself, it almost seems deliberately deceptive - but I've read enough of these forums that I should expect that, I suppose!

    Presumably a ticket "issue date" is supposed to be when the patrol officer puts a note on the car. Is it worth pointing out that they've reported the ticket as being issued a week later than it actually was (on the date that they say a notice to keeper was sent)?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Resident parking - IPC

    Quote Originally Posted by kite View Post
    Great, I'll change that bit then. Thankyou very much for all your help so far, M1. I have to admit, it seems a bit ridiculous that the operator's argument isn't even consistent with itself, it almost seems deliberately deceptive - but I've read enough of these forums that I should expect that, I suppose!

    Presumably a ticket "issue date" is supposed to be when the patrol officer puts a note on the car. Is it worth pointing out that they've reported the ticket as being issued a week later than it actually was (on the date that they say a notice to keeper was sent)?
    Issue date is usually when posted.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

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