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Thread: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

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  1. #1
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    Default Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Hi Guys,

    I wonder if you can help me. My wife was issued with a PCN by Civil Enforcement Ltd. in relation to an over-stay in a car park in Birmingham (King's Heath Retail Park, Findlay Road, Birmingham, B14 7SN). The incident in question occurred on 19th November 2016.

    We have just received a "Letter Before Action" letter from Civil Enforcement Ltd. and, just to confirm, we have not acknowledged this PCN in any way, shape or form. Nor have we formally appealed this PCN via POPLA. Note that the "Letter Before Action" we have just received includes a Press Summary regarding two court cases - "Cavendish Square Holdings BV (Appellant) v Talal El Makdessi and ParkingEye Limited (Respondent) v Beavis (Appellant)"

    Now, my understanding is that PCNs issued by organisations that are not a local council or the police are not legally enforceable. Is this still correct?

    I myself was issued a PCN by Civil Enforcement Ltd. a couple of years ago and successfully appealed the PCN via the POPLA route (with some help from Legal Beagles )

    If I were to post pictures of the letter we have been sent, would anyone have any templates that we could use to successfully appeal against this PCN?

    Many thanks in advance,

    Bopper

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    They are enforceable if the parking company care to take them to court. Things chaged with the introduction of POFA in October 2012.

    The court cases mentioned are used as frighteners and most probably will not apply to your situation. A copy of the original PCNs would be helpful. With identifying details removed.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Post up the claim form after sanitising it.

    M1
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    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Quote Originally Posted by mystery1 View Post
    Post up the claim form after sanitising it.

    M1
    Guys,

    Here is the chaser, but I'm afraid my wife has already thrown the original PCN itself in the bin!

    Any help you could provide would be most appreciated!

    Many thanks,

    Bopper
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2.jpg   1.jpg   3.jpg   4.jpg   5.jpg  

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Is your wife the registered keeper ?

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Quote Originally Posted by mystery1 View Post
    Is your wife the registered keeper ?

    M1
    Yes, my wife is the registered keeper of the vehicle.

    Many thanks,

    Bopper

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Dear Civil Enforcement,

    I am in receipt of your draft particulars of claim and letter before action.

    In order to respond, and to comply with the pre action protocols and CPR, please answer the following questions :-

    1. Are you chasing myself as the registered keeper ?

    2. How are the extra charges made up ?


    Please also furnish me with a copy of your PCN and signs at the site.

    Once you supply the requested information i will reply in full.

    Yours etc

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Thanks!

    Will send this letter off and let you know what I receive back.

    Many thanks,

    Bopper

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Hi Guys,

    Sorry for the delay here. I sent a letter to Civil Enforcement, with the wording kindly provided in this thread.

    I have attached the documents I received back from CE.

    How should I phrase & structure my response to CE?

    I am a little concerned that I have been a little bit tardy in replying to them up to this point.....

    Your continued support is much appreciated.

    Many thanks,

    Bopper
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails WP_20170412_20_53_32_Pro.jpg   WP_20170412_20_54_02_Pro.jpg   WP_20170412_20_54_37_Pro.jpg   WP_20170412_20_55_45_Pro.jpg  

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    I would reply something like

    Dear Civil enforcement Limited.,

    I write in response to your letter before action dated xxxxx, the contents of which are noted.

    As the pre action protocols expect us to exchange sufficient information to understand each others position please forward to myself the original parking charge notice and a picture of the signs at the location as well as the operators contract which allows them to operate at the site (or indeed confirmation they own the land in question).

    As well as the information already requested please answer the following questions :-

    What type of car park is it ?

    What contravention gives a cause of action ?

    Who contravened your rules ?

    Who you are pursuing ?

    Have you followed the rules laid down in the Protection of freedoms act 2012 schedule 4 ?

    How is the £x made up ?

    Not only will this information help comply with the pre action protocols it will also help achieve the over riding objective.

    Having done some research on your claims i request that if you ignore my requests for information that your claim complies with

    CPR 16

    Contents of the claim form
    16.2
    (1) The claim form must –
    (a) contain a concise statement of the nature of the claim

    Contents of the particulars of claim
    16.4
    (1) Particulars of claim must include –
    (a) a concise statement of the facts on which the claimant relies;

    Practice direction 16

    Other matters to be included in particulars of claim




    7.5 Where a claim is based upon an agreement by conduct, the particulars of claim must specify the conduct relied on and state by whom, when and where the acts constituting the conduct were done.


    I await your response.

    Yours sincerely



    Send via email if possible.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Hi mystery1,

    Thanks for your draft letter above, however, I believe you may have missed some wording our towards the bottom of your post -

    "Having done some research on your claims i request that if you ignore my requests for information that your claim complies with....."

    What are the consequences of Civil Enforcement not complying with CPR16, that their claim cannot be upheld?

    Many thanks in advance,

    Bopper84

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Probably should have :- after with.

    In theory yes. Some judges will throw a case out if the case makes no sense when pleaded (that also applies to a defence).

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Hi Guys,

    The PCN my wife received towards the end of last year is still ongoing. Latest developments are as follows -

    Civil Enforcement Ltd forwarded on the matter to a company called ZZPS Ltd, who have now, in turn, passed it onto Wright Hassall Solicitors. We have received the letter attached in the last week or so.

    Now, I've done a little reading up and this Wright Hassall firm also seem to be cowboys, but we are getting a little jittery and are close to paying the fine (which is now an astonishing £236!)

    Do you have any advice on how you would proceed from this point, if you were in our position?

    Many thanks as always,

    Bopper

    - - - Updated - - -

    Wright Hassall letter attached.

    Many thanks,

    Bopper
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG-20170710-WA0013.jpg  

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    You could write the WH asking on what authority are they are taking instructions from ZZPS when the alleged debt is with CEL.

    If it did go to court as a claim against the registered keeper and they are using POFA for keeper liability then the max they can claim from the keeper is the original PCN

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Thanks Ostell.

    My wife and I are going to hold our ground and ignore the WH letter for now. I found some interesting articles regarding both Civil Enforcement ltd and WH. Will post links to these articles as a response to this thread in the next week or so. These will hopefully be of use to other forum members.

    Many thanks,

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    It's ok to ignore this but do not ignore court papers, ever.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Guys,

    We have received a further letter from WH, which includes the strongest worded threat yet of a CCJ being obtained against my wife. Because of potential consequences of this, I am going to write a response letter to WH. Any advice / sample content I could use would be greatly appreciated.

    I'm tempted to say that we would now be happy to pay the original PCN amount of £140.00, but not the increased amount of £236.00.

    Many thanks in advance! Latest letter to follow....

    Bopper

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    Guys, please find attached the latest letter from WH.

    Many thanks,

    Bopper
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG-20170725-WA0019.jpg   IMG-20170725-WA0020.jpg  

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd. PCN - Assistance Requested!

    This is yet again a frightener letter. ZZPS cannot instruct them, they have no authority and indeed the letter say that they anticipate they may be instructed not that they have been instructed.. They cannot claim their legal costs from you and before they cann get a CCJ against you the have to take you to court, you have to lose and you don't pay within a month. The worst case of the amount to pay is the original charge. whatever that was +£25 court fee + £50 solicitors fees. Note that this is not a fine.

    What is the first digit of the reference number? If it's not 1 it's not WH.

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