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Thread: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

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  1. #201
    des8's Avatar

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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Replied on PM , and not writing it all again!

  2. #202
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Statement of Case all posted off. Another tick in the box thank you.

    So tonight, Inspection. Thanks for all the advice Des.

    My OH asked earlier, if he turns up with his mate again (very likely) we let them both on property for inspection? OH wants to say no to his mate but I have said no we can't be seen to be unreasonable. Am I right?

  3. #203
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    I'd go along with you, Chelle, but if he /they become intimidatory have no hesitation in telling him/them to leave.
    If he/they do not, then call the police

  4. #204
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Been and gone. He brought a neutral person to look over the van.

    They pushed the van back, had no equipment. Took loads of photos.

    The damage, he looked at it and didn't even ask what happened. Too calm !
    So I said YOUR van got damaged day of storm doris. Reported to police. They immediately came as shocked there has been a crime as we live in such a safe place crime is unheard of. They asked me who'd i'd upset. Told him could be vandalism or storm it's unknown. I held out a piece of paper with date and crime no but he never took it so I put it back in my pocket.

    He wanted to see smoke but never brought any equipment so van did not get started. They pushed van back and said won't take up any more of your time and he'd be in touch.

    So what do you make of that?





    He said nothing, took lots of pictures.

    They engaged electrics and engine fan immediately kicked in and defendant commented that's the fan you were talking about. Looked under engine and he said yes there is an engine leak. Spoke quietly to his associate. They were here probably around 10 mins. Asked me to leave off the cover as it's rubbing the paintwork. So now uncovered and kids have even more strict instructions to go nowhere near it.

    And I looked around the van after they left, OMG so much rust and patchwork on side panels, rear spoiler corner had paint over the top (cover up), botched paint job in places around the van. First time I saw what a cover up he sold me ! NEVER BUY A VEHICLE IN THE RAIN BUYER BEWARE !
    Last edited by fandabby; 22nd June 2017 at 19:08:PM.

  5. #205
    des8's Avatar

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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    I would expect an attempt to reduce the amount of the refund due by arguing the damage occurred whilst in your care and custody.
    You can prepare along the lines already discussed ie his vehicle from time of rejection. Damage occurred long time after that (it wasn't present when DEKRA inspection carried out) and you were only an involuntary bailleee, taking reasonable care.

    Did he not make arrangements to collect?

  6. #206
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Will keep this thread posted and thanks Des.

    Now I wait to hear what the offer is but I already know I am not prepared to take less because he has behaved so badly in this and I am not taking responsibility for the damage as yes it occured some 3 months after rejection.

    I told him that I have video footage of van parked at top of drive dated and it's intact!

    7 months on practically, court date around the corner, Judge said she wants to get this sorted so let's play it out if he cant offer properly.

  7. #207
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    No no arrangements to collect, cool calm I'll be in touch. Just asked to keep cover off as it will damage paintwork. I told him police told me to cover after damage. He didn't respond.

  8. #208
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Hi

    The court trial fee is due by 12 September, do I wait and pay end of Aug for in case I get an offer but tbh I don't think I will hear as it will be 6 weeks this thurs since inspection and no communication since - or do I pay now.

    I won't forget but not sure when to make the payment.


    As for my costs I am preparing ( receipts for postage, and losses resulting from this purchase etc) do I do 4 copies like WS or 2 one of me and one for Judge ?

    Many thanks

  9. #209
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    I'd wait to nearer the deadline for paying the hearing fee - if you settle after you have paid it remember to account for it in the settlement figure as the hearing fee is no longer refundable.

    Costs schedule you should do a copy for the other side too ( so 3 copies at least).
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

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  10. #210
    fandabby's Avatar

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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Quick update.

    Received a letter from another letter head from Solicitor for Notice of change of Solicitor.

    Says to notify me and court of change and they will be in touch again shortly.

    It is the same Solicitor and from checking this Solicitor has set up their own company 19 Apr 2017 so is now representing defendant under their company and not the previous company solicitor worked for. (checked with companies house and is the same person first and last name). Also just checked the website from previous letters and said Solicitor no longer on their list of lawyers so now setup for themselves.

    So I wait and see what happens. Will hold off paying trial fee until beginning of September (due 12th) for in case they make me an offer but I am after full settlement due to him being a complete Ar*e and it's been months of stress and by the time we in court will be 5 weeks short of a year this has been going on .. and will have lost money anyway as I only allocated 6 months insurance. Is this reasonable of me ?

    Urgh 8 weeks to wait and hopefully I can move on !

  11. #211
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    I wonder if the original group (probably an LLP) know that this guy, on leaving to set up his own business, has taken client(s) with him?
    Might be fun to put the cat among the pigeons by asking them if it is correct that XYZ company is representing their client MR Dodgy Van Dealer. lol

    If you want to amend your statement of case re the amount claimed you will need the permission either of all parties or of the court (CPR 17) and the application fee is £255.
    IMO not worth the hassle, although I can't remember the amount of the premium .

  12. #212
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Thanks Des for responding.

    No I won't change my statement of case I will just have everything detailed in true cost in my costs which I am preparing. If they make an offer in the meantime it will need to be full settlement since I am losing out anyway.

    I wander if Solicitor / Defendant will show for the trial since no show on allocation hearing.

    Will keep posting as and when something crops up.

    Many thanks

  13. #213
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Good afternoon everyone

    I have attached a letter which I have received today.

    What a joke ! offer of £9,000. So he thinks the damage to the front costs 7k to fix.

    I am unsure how I respond to this, definite NO way. Also noted the wrong year in their letter - 2007!

    I need help please in replying and the last paragraph in the letter can someone extend on what solicitor means? Can they bill me their costs should I win? Bit confused on last paragraph.
    I have just re read this paragraph again so what solicitor is saying is if I win the case but the Judge only awards me £9k or less in relation to what they are offering now, they will seek for me to pay their legal costs. Should I win this claim can the Judge award such a low figure because of the damage? Surely since I rejected In Nov and this damage occurred in February (7 days after he got served with court) will the Judge see this as not my fault ? And as for £7k less of my claim, that takes the p*ss. I have a quote from a body shop repair which is for £1286.84. How the frick did this defendant (dodgy trader) come up with £9k to include all my damages, interest - in which case he is infact only offering £7k for the van as £2k was for damages/court fee. I am insulted.

    Just to recap = purchased for £13,995. Total claim is £16,155.27. This includes my losses and court fee.

    Letter he is still denying allegations (presumably this is the Dekra report). However on his inspection, van would not start, heard fan kicking in, he opened the window from the outside and saw the oil leak. (he couldn't see other faults as he never brought any equipment to inspect). How can he deny ?

    As for my duty about informing court and defendant at the time van was damaged I know beginning of this thread advice was to just inform my insurer and see if it comes out in court. Since his inspection I have obviously updated my WS to include when van was damaged (7 days after court initiated) and have the basic police report as an exhibit. Am I supposed to now inform court or still play it out?

    Obviously Solicitor trying to scare me again and it is kinda working since I'm LIP and he has solicitor in the room.

    Another question, at the hearing can the judge stop proceedings and place it fast track as I expect Solicitor will complicate the case?

    Will look forward to hearing on how I respond to this please.

    Many thanks
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by fandabby; 12th August 2017 at 14:22:PM. Reason: Re read last pargraph

  14. #214
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    begging no doubt? see what others say

  15. #215
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    My initial reaction is for you to write
    Dear Sir.
    Ref this matter I refer you to the answer given in "Arkll v Pressdram (1971)"
    Yours FFLLY.

    Will get back later with a more printable response!

  16. #216
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Politely give them the response suggested above i.e. decline the offer, but do not enter into correspondence

    eg:" I regret the offer is deficient and accordingly declined."
    Yrs FfLLY.

    You do not have to give any reason, and there is no need to remind them that as you treated the contract as at an end as per CRA 2016 (sec20 (4) & (6)the dealer was the owner from the time you rejected the vehicle and you were only an involuntary bailee. The damage did not occur whilst in your ownership but whilst in your possession. You took reasonable care of the vehicle.

    Don't worry about costs. This is small claims and costs are limited.
    Most unlikely the court, having allocated to small claims would revise that decision for a party who failed to turn up for the allocation hearing!

    The damage to the vehicle plays no part in your claim, but you do bring it out in your WS.
    Your claim is for return of purchase price and damages. The damage to the vehicle is incidental, and would not have happened if the defendant had acted correctly.

    Typical solicitor (apologies to Peridot et al lol) trying to frighten a LiP

  17. #217
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Many thanks Des, keep is short and sweet.

    So you think I should send something like:

    *************************************
    Dear Madam

    I am in receipt of your letter dated 10 August 2017.

    I regret the offer is deficient and accordingly declined.

    Yours faithfully

    ************************************************** ******

    When do you think I should send this letter?

    I know this is ahead of time, when a judgement has been ruled by Judge day of hearing -

    I win - can they appeal
    They win - can I appeal


    I don't see how I can lose as the report details lots of faults and when he inspected himself back in June (finally agreeing to inspection having rejected all offers prior to damage) he said to his associate yes there is a leak, yes the fan is kicking in and shouldn't, the window not securing on closure -but this inspection was not recorded so hearsay.

    OH is fuming and wants me to name and shame when this is all over.

    Thanks for help, be lost without the good people on this site, you're saving my sanity.

  18. #218
    des8's Avatar

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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Quote Originally Posted by fandabby View Post
    Many thanks Des, keep is short and sweet.

    So you think I should send something like:

    *************************************
    Dear Madam

    I am in receipt of your letter dated 10 August 2017.

    I regret the offer is deficient and accordingly declined.

    Yours faithfully

    ************************************************** ******

    When do you think I should send this letter? Whenever you feel like it

    I know this is ahead of time, when a judgement has been ruled by Judge day of hearing -

    I win - can they appeal l
    They win - can I appeal (that's what I like.. confidence!!)
    Losing party can ask judge for permission to appeal. If declined permission can be sought from the court of appeal.
    Permission will only be granted if judge thinks there is a real chance of the appeal succeeding.
    Appellant must demonstrate the decision was wrong because of a serious mistake or because procedures were not followed properly
    There are also costs implications


    I don't see how I can lose as the report details lots of faults and when he inspected himself back in June (finally agreeing to inspection having rejected all offers prior to damage) he said to his associate yes there is a leak, yes the fan is kicking in and shouldn't, the window not securing on closure -but this inspection was not recorded so hearsay.

    OH is fuming and wants me to name and shame when this is all over. Be careful to only publish exactly what is true

    Thanks for help, be lost without the good people on this site, you're saving my sanity.
    Are you going to write to this solicitor's previous firm as suggested earlier?

  19. #219
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Afternoon

    Many thanks Des.

    With this letter I am sending, do I right at the top between address and Dear....

    Without Prejudice
    or
    Without Prejudice save as to costs (what soliciior had in their letter).


    Also thinking back to my WS, shall I also include when the bodyshop man came to inspect and quote (include as exhibit) the repair of damage to bumper and wing - or rather leave it out and just have several copies with me if argument develops over cost of repairs in court room.. ? He also said the bodywork was in bad shape and had a coverup to get it through a sale. Lots of rust has appeared over the months and you can see patchups where they painted over but now worn off.


    Thanks

  20. #220
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    The letter sounded a bit like a Part 36 offer but it isn't stated so it isn't, however the costs consequences should be flagged up, just so you are aware - the court has discretion under part 44.2 ( 2 c ) - basically if the final ruling is an award less than the offer there could be costs consequences of turning it down at this stage. It might be worth considering whether to make a counter offer - WP save as to costs.
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

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  21. #221
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    So a Calderbank offer, and yes there could be costs consequences, but viewing the amount offered against the claim and the unreasonable behaviour of the defendant (including his solicitor) I really can't envisage a scenario where the judge would make a costs award in this case.

    But tactically it could be worth making a counter offer, if only for a small amount under the claimed amount.
    However that might mean losing the possibility of recovering costs on the basis of unreasonable behaviour by the defendant.

  22. #222
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Afternoon everyone

    So in court in just over 5 weeks.

    I rejected previous offer which was sent 3 weeks ago.

    I now have just received this on my email:

    Without Prejudice save as to Costs

    Dear <name>

    We write further in this matter and note your rejection of our client’s offer in the sum of £9000 inclusive.

    We look forward to receiving your counter-proposal for settlement with a view to concluding this matter without incurring further costs.

    Kind regards,

    ************************************************** *******************

    What now ?
    Do I have to make a counter offer?
    I am going to be paying the court fee which is £335 next day or so as deadline for that is the 12th Sept.

    Full claim was £16,155.27.

    Any suggestions please on what my next move is?

    Many thanks



    Also to mention now this late in the game, I have incurred further costs like, postage is extra now at £64.19 and stationery bought for WS and Exhibits, interest, my time, all the printing and copying etc....
    Last edited by fandabby; 1st September 2017 at 13:51:PM. Reason: Added to

  23. #223
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    You do not have to make a counter offer.

    Starting at the beginning, the offer made to you of £9000 is IMO derisory, and not a meaningful effort to settle this matter.
    The defendant has ignored all previous suggestions of mediation or ADR, and now expects you to roll over because he is using a solicitor adept at frightening LIPs.
    If meant to be a Calderbank offer the offer they made should be stated to invite the court’s discretion under CPR 44.3
    The letter also contains misleading statements about ownership of the vehicle, which reverted to the trader when you rejected it.

    You could fire back a letter explaining your reasons for rejecting his offerhead it WP save as to costs)
    1) it's derisory
    2) it does not reflect the purchase price of the vehicle and your claim for damages
    3) as the vehicle had been rejected you treated the contract as at an end (CRA2015 chap 2 20 (4) and ownership reverted to XYZ
    4)XYZ failed to respond to early suggestions for mediation or ADR

    However In response you could offer a very small discount from your claim amount in an effort to reach settlement without going through the court process.
    (If they accept you will miss out on claiming costs due to unreasonable behaviour, but that isn't a certain win anyway)
    Tell him you will accept £x in full and final settlement of your claim, and that the offer remains open until dd september 2017.


    PS still on OH's laptop!

  24. #224
    fandabby's Avatar

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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Thanks Des. Not good you haven't got your computer sorted.

    I will draft a letter and post it up before sending for comment.

    I held off paying 335 to court today although I'm aware I need it paid and cleared by 12th.

    Can I ask for £16,155 which is literally full amount minus 27p? And this accepted before 7th. Incase I then need to go on and pay hearing fee?

    I have lost out anyway with all my extra additional costs for shortage on insurance/tax, extra postage and stationery bought, all adds up.

    Thanks Des.


    OH has just asked could I also ask that it be paid in full by 7th not just accepted? Thought behind that hearing fee needs to be paid by 12th but would prefer to pay 8th latest so I know I'm covered and don't want them to accept offer then mess me about with payment and I have not paid hearing fee for thinking we settling and then court case thrown out !
    Last edited by fandabby; 1st September 2017 at 19:38:PM. Reason: Chatted to OH

  25. #225
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    Default Re: Court Claim issued, Storm Doris now damaged van UPDATE

    Quote Originally Posted by fandabby View Post
    Thanks Des. Not good you haven't got your computer sorted.

    I will draft a letter and post it up before sending for comment.

    I held off paying 335 to court today although I'm aware I need it paid and cleared by 12th.

    Can I ask for £16,155 which is literally full amount minus 27p? And this accepted before 7th. Incase I then need to go on and pay hearing fee?
    I think that might be shooting yourself in the foot as it would not be taken as a serious attempt to settle prior to court
    I have lost out anyway with all my extra additional costs for shortage on insurance/tax, extra postage and stationery bought, all adds up.

    Thanks Des.
    Appreciate what you are saying about your expenses so far, and whilst I personally might be prepared to take a chance, there is always the risk of adverse costs ruling, no matter how remote that risk may seem to us.

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