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  1. #1
    DandyWarhol83's Avatar

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    Default London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    Hi all,

    Wonder if you can help or give me some advice on an unfair parking ticket recently received from London Parking Solutions.
    I live in a block of flats managed by a company who last year acquired the services of LPS to police the residential parking of the flats, to prevent other residents around the area from using it.. This was done by allocating 3 parking permits (2 x orange for permanent residents and 1 x white for visitors) to each flat, to be shown in the cars when parked at the flats. Note, there are no assigned parking bays to each flat.
    Last week I was given a penalty charge notice (PCN) when, for the first time, I forgot to display the orange badge on my windshield. My girlfriend happened to be parking up when the parking inspector was writing the ticket for my car, and so quickly alerted him to the fact the car belonged to a resident and the orange badge was inside the car by the handbrake (where I keep it when I’m driving), to which she pointed it out to him, and the guy used his torch to see it through the window. However, he refused to acknowledge that as legitimate, as it wasn’t displayed in the windshield, as requested by the signs around the car park. She pleaded with him as he could quite easily see that the car had an orange badge for parking, but he refused to comply.
    I submitted an appeal against the PCN, but have been rejected on the grounds of the badge not displayed in the windshield, again as stated on the signs around the car park.
    I think this is ridiculous, they’ve got me on a small technicality of “the badge wasn’t in the correct position in the car”. The inspector could even see the badge when it was pointed out to him, clearly identifying that the car belonged to a resident of the flats, who also happens to pay for this lovely service as well.
    Do I have any grounds for an independent appeal here, or do I suck it up and pay the £60 fine before the 14 days is up?
    Absolutely fuming that this company aren’t policing the car park, they just want to catch residents out instead.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    That's how they make their money, ticketing residents, nothing will stop them doing that.

    Find your lease and see what it says about parking. If you have a right to park, or quiet enjoyment or no mention of having to display a permit to park then they have no case as your lease takes precedence and no 3rd party can alter it. Search for the appeal case of jobson. That involves flats and parking companies. The parking company lost and because it was an appeal then it is persuasive.

    Pictures of the signs might help

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    DandyWarhol83's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    Thanks for your response, I'll have a look at the lease. It's quite an old copy (dating back to the 60's), so I hope I can find the right part about the parking.

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    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    Have a look at this link, worth following some of the links.

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    DandyWarhol83's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    Thanks for the link, was some very interesting reading. I looked into my original lease for the flat and found that it states:
    The Lessor hereby demises unto the Lesses all that the first floor flat (with the car parking space allocated to it) (hereinafter called "the flat") situate and being at and known as Flat numbered 40, Pine Lodge... etc
    Will this be enough to state that I'm entitled to park at the flats?
    Will they argue that as I stated my girlfriend was parking up, they'll argue that she was parking in the space allocated, and not my car?

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    mystery1's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    Will this be enough to state that I'm entitled to park at the flats?
    I'd say so. Are there any alteration/variation clauses ? Nothing that imposes conditions on using the space ?

    M1
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    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email [email protected] if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

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    DandyWarhol83's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    There are no alterations that I can see. If I go down the route for this, I'm worried that they'all say that - Because my girlfriend was parking up at the time, she was using the parking space allocated to the flat, not my car. If that makes sense?

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    mystery1's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    Quote Originally Posted by DandyWarhol83 View Post
    There are no alterations that I can see. If I go down the route for this, I'm worried that they'all say that - Because my girlfriend was parking up at the time, she was using the parking space allocated to the flat, not my car. If that makes sense?
    Have you told them this, otherwise i doubt they'd know. Does the lease come with the space identified and state no other parking ?

    M1
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    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email [email protected] if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

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    DandyWarhol83's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    I did state it in the appeal when when I described to London parking Solutions what happened that evening. They could use that against me, but I really want to fight them on this. It's like getting a parking ticket on your drive way!! They have already rejected my appeal - shock horror.

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    mystery1's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    http://nebula.wsimg.com/2b78bca39246...&alloworigin=1

    The answers are all in the lease.

    "with the car parking space allocated to it"

    Is there a definition or map ? The space could be 1 solitary identifiable space or it could be a forecourt or car park. The answer should be in the lease.

    If you appeal to the IAS, and i see no reason not to (although you will probably lose), you will need to send the lease to them highlighting the correct sections.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email [email protected] if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  11. #11
    DandyWarhol83's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    The parking space is not defined in the lease, it just says flat with allocated parking space.
    I've appealed to the IAS, so awaiting for the inevitable rejection.

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    As predicted, I lost the appeal with the IAS as they state, and I quote:

    "As a leaseholder the appellant is either obliged to accept the operator's terms for parking , or park elsewhere. The landowner has given authority to the operator to operate this parking scheme, and this overrides any leasehold right the appellant may have. The appellant leases the parking space and is not he true legal owner of that parking space. The appellant admits that the permit was not properly displayed in the windscreen of the vehicle and was in the cup holder by the handbrake. Although the attendant could see that there was a permit in the vehicle, it was not clearly not on display as per the terms of the parking. This appeal is therefore dismissed"

    I think this is wrong, but I'm unsure what route to go down now. Please help?
    Would greatly appreciate it.

  13. #13
    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    You have a lease, the lease has not/cannot be varied without your consent. They are talking rubbish. It matters not about who was parked in the space, it was your space to do with as you want. The lessor cannot give you land and then give it to another.

    So they could see the permit but still issued the ticket !!! It's beyond belief !

    If this proceeds to court then I would think any judge would find it hard not to laugh.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    Even Trump would be embarrassed by that.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co...l-parking.html

    http://nebula.wsimg.com/2b78bca39246...&alloworigin=1

    The purported complete determination by the defendants of the claimant’s right to
    park which took effect between May 1997 and 1st August 2000 was in my judgment a
    clear derogation from the right to park to which the claimant was entitled under the
    lease. It entirely frustrated the purpose for which the right to park had been given to
    the lessee by paragraph 7 of the Second Schedule had been granted and which must
    have been in the contemplation of both the parties to the lease at the time of the
    original grant. It thus infringed the claimant’s rights



    http://nebula.wsimg.com/c269da31b314...&alloworigin=1

    I have to deal with this on the evidence that is before me now. I have before me a
    tenancy agreement which gives Mr [N. redacted] the right to park on the estate and it
    does not say “on condition that you display a permit”. It does not say that, so he has that
    right. What Pace Recovery is seeking to do is, unilaterally outside the contract, restrict
    that right to only when a permit is displayed. Pace Recovery cannot do that. It has got
    to be the other contracting party, Affinity Sutton, which amends the terms of the tenancy
    agreement to restrict the right to park on a place in circumstances in which a permit is
    displayed but that is not in this tenancy agreement and you as a third party cannot
    unilaterally alter the terms of the tenancy agreement.


    http://nebula.wsimg.com/f6d657adf7df...&alloworigin=1

    It will be apparent from that that a good deal of the attention of the district
    judge was devoted to the question whether or not the claimant was in fact
    authorised to do what it was purporting to do, but no reference was made to
    the conceded lack of notice – see paragraphs 8, 9 and 16 of this judgment –
    and there was no analysis of the existence and extent of the right to unload as
    an ancillary to the easement to pass or re-pass, nor was there any
    consideration of whether what the defendant was doing in fact constituted
    parking.

    http://nebula.wsimg.com/d31f6731eeb7...&alloworigin=1

    9. There is nothing to suggest that Mrs Parkinson has breached this covenant. More
    particularly there is nothing in the covenant that requires her to display a valid parking
    permit. Thus, it seems to me that pursuant to the lease, all that the defendant was
    obliged to do was park in her own space and ensure that the vehicle was road-worthy
    and appropriately taxed.
    10. The question is, therefore, whether Isis by engaging Link Parking have in effect varied
    the original lease, or whether they are entitled to impose parking restrictions pursuant to
    [inaudible] 2, section 21 on page 13 of the agreement.
    11. There is no evidence before me to suggest that they have in any way undertaken steps to
    vary the lease, and I am not satisfied on the evidence before me that section 21 applies
    such that by engaging the company they have applied new and binding regulations on
    the leaseholders. A mere letter regarding permits would not, in my judgment, suffice in
    this regard.


    So as you see, the courts disagree en masse.

    There are now several options open to you.

    1. Pay. But you don't want to do that.

    2. File everything and ignore unless/until a letter before action turns up.

    3. Set up a data protection claim or counterclaim.

    4. Sue for trespass.

    5. Set up a harassment claim or counterclaim.

    You do not have to wait for 2 to do 3 , 4 or 5.

    Data http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/data-protection-act/

    Trespass UKPC v Davey http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...ss-**SUCCESS**

    Harassment http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2009/46.html http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2013/982.html http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2013/882.html http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/...e/2011/B3.html

    M1
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    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email [email protected] if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

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    DandyWarhol83's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    Thanks for the responses. Will it make a difference that my parking space is not actually marked out? The car park is for residents but based on a first come first serve basis. My lease states I have a car park space allocated to the flat, but not specific to where in the car park it is. Will this go against me?

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    From what you've said it appears you would have been parked in compliance had the permit been on full display. The lease appears not to mention that a permit is required so that appears to me, on what you've posted, that they have no case.

    M1
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    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

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    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email [email protected] if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

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    DandyWarhol83's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    I agree, it's not stated that a permit is required to be displayed and there fore they don't have a case. I have emailed the property management company who have hired LPS to ask if they have been given permission by the landowner and if they have initiated a variation on all the leases for all the residents. I've read that if they haven't followed the correct procedure in implementing a variation on the lease, it cannot stand. With regards to the options you've given, I definitely don't want to pay it. No 2 seems like the option to go down, where I assume I awaited for them to take me to a small claims court?

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    . I have emailed the property management company who have hired LPS to ask if they have been given permission by the landowner
    Probably.

    if they have initiated a variation on all the leases for all the residents.
    Probably not.

    No 2 seems like the option to go down, where I assume I awaited for them to take me to a small claims court?
    Correct.

    M1
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    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email [email protected] if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  19. #19
    DandyWarhol83's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    I am bit worried that if I don't pay, LPS will come back and clamp my car. Is that something they can do?

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    Quote Originally Posted by DandyWarhol83 View Post
    I am bit worried that if I don't pay, LPS will come back and clamp my car. Is that something they can do?
    Clamping was made illegal, which is why POFA schedule 4 was implemented as a sop to the parking companies. (except in very very limited circumstances and this is not one of them).

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    DandyWarhol83's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    Ok, thank you.
    Do I write to LPS to say that I'm not going to pay, or wait till the letters start coming in?

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    Up to you.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email [email protected] if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

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    DandyWarhol83's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    So, I spoke to the property management company on this just to get a clarification from them in terms of my lease, and they have come back to me stating that the map on my lease highlighting where my space is, is not where I parked- which is true.
    However, no parking spaces are actually marked out for each flat. There are no signs, labels or even white lines to actually state where each parking space is. Because of this, people park wherever they can, and where my space is shown on the map, there is always someone parked in it, due to it's premium location right near the entrance.
    Therefore, the property management company have said that I should pay the fine as I am in the wrong space.
    Am I in the wrong?

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    If there is an identifiable space on your lease then yes i'd say you are wrong. (which is different from saying you'll lose btw).

    If the space marked on the lease is not identifiable on the ground then they are wrong.

    If someone else is using your space then you MAY have a claim against them and/or the PPC or property management company as your space is to all extent and purposes unusable.

    It's one of these scenarios whereby it is difficult to call from afar and easier to judge when you are on the ground, as you are.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email [email protected] if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

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    DandyWarhol83's Avatar

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    Default Re: London Parking Solutions - PCN to own resident

    Hmmm, really not sure what to do now.
    That's kind of thrown a spanner in the works.
    If I don't pay the fine, they will take me to a small claims court, which they could now use this against me, maybe.

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