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Discussion on Payment direct to Council vs paying the bailiff fees

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  • #16
    Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

    Originally posted by Jim Bowen View Post

    You want me to post the ones that agree with your interpretation? For what purpose?

    Of course some do,
    I'm just showing there will be just as many that do not. FWIW, I did 20 FOIs to random nationwide councils, some agreed with you, some did not and some were ambiguous.
    You seem to still be confused. You confirm that you submitted 20 Freedom of Information requests and that:

    some agree with my interpretation...

    some do not....

    and some were ambiguous.


    In your above posts, you have chosen to exhibit one third of the responses ( 7 replies). In order to provide a degree of accuracy, could you please exhibit the other two thirds.

    Perhaps in that way, these errant councils (and others) may learn how they should be dealing with 'direct payments'.

    Thank you for your assistance.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

      Originally posted by Milo View Post
      Perhaps in that way, these errant councils (and others) may learn how they should be dealing with 'direct payments'.

      Thank you for your assistance.
      And there we have the reveal. The councils that are not passing on funds are, to you, the errant ones. Why are you so aggrieved by this? Why are these councils the errant ones and not the ones that are not following the schedule 12 procedure?

      So you know, of the 20 replies, 7 said they don't pass on fees, 4 said they do, 8 were ambiguous and 1 refused to say.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

        Originally posted by Jim Bowen View Post

        So you know, of the 20 replies, 7 said they don't pass on fees, 4 said they do, 8 were ambiguous and 1 refused to say.
        I take it that you are refusing to provide a copy of all the responses?

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

          Originally posted by Milo View Post
          I take it that you are refusing to provide a copy of all the responses?
          Of course not, just letting you know what they will say. I'll do so shortly. In the meantime, I have no confusion about s1 of sch12, I'm simply asking what is your interpretation, a question you are avoiding.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

            Originally posted by Jim Bowen View Post
            Of course not, just letting you know what they will say. I'll do so shortly.
            Excellent. I look forward to reading them later today. (and hopefully, in full and not edited).

            I am certainly not avoiding discussing your off topic question. I am merely ensuring that we keep to the subject of your FOI requests (which after all, is the reason why you re-joined this forum today).

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

              Originally posted by Milo View Post
              Excellent. I look forward to reading them later today. (and hopefully, in full and not edited).

              I am certainly not avoiding discussing your off topic question. I am merely ensuring that we keep to the subject of your FOI requests (which after all, is the reason why you re-joined this forum today).
              Not sure what you mean by edited - are you suggesting the ones I've already posted have been? Obviously I'd need to edit out any personal info, but they are copy and pasted word for word.

              I doubt anyone will mind you going 'off topic', so please give us your interpretation os sch12 s1, as at the moment you most definitely are avoiding it.

              - - - Updated - - -

              First ambiguous reply:

              Dear Mr xxx

              Thank you for your request for information, our reference 4021, received on 11/10/2016.
              Your request has now been considered and the information can be found below.
              There is no set procedure where the customer has paid/is paying the Council directly instead of the Enforcement Agents.

              Where a case is paid in full to the Council, each case would be looked at individually and a decision would be made by the Council if the Enforcement fees are payable.

              If part payments are made direct to the Council, the Enforcement Agents will be advised by the Council to confirm that that debt has decreased.

              Yours sincerely


              Jessica Palmer
              Senior Communications Officer | Broxbourne Borough Council
              Bishops’ College | Churchgate | Cheshunt | EN8 9XQ
              - - - Updated - - -

              Second one:

              Dear Mr xxx


              Thank you for your request for information regarding ‘procedure should a debtor pay all or some of the arrears direct to the council rather than through the EA’ (reference number 01244); please see our response below. If you have any queries regarding your request for information then please don’t hesitate to contact me.


              Blackburn with Darwen Borough Council can advise that a daily report is run to identify accounts which are at “enforcement agent” and which have received a payment.

              Should this payment have an effect on the balance of the Liability Order that the Enforcement Agent is collecting, an email is sent to the EA to advise the amount of payment and the revised balance on our account.

              Kind Regards,

              Heather Wolstenholme
              Freedom of Information Officer
              ITM&G Floor G,
              Tower Block,
              Blackburn Town Hall,
              Blackburn,
              BB1 7DY
              - - - Updated - - -

              Number three:

              MWiggin@burnley.gov.uk

              FOI 4033


              Dear xxx
              Thank you for your recent freedom of information request. Your response is below:


              A. If the account has been passed to an EA and full or part payment is received by the Council, the EA is advised of the direct payment and their records are adjusted to show the correct reduced balance.

              Kind regards, Mollie.
              - - - Updated - - -

              Fourth:

              FOI6063
              foi@barrowbc.gov.uk

              Dear Sir/Madam

              FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT 2000 – INFORMATION REQUEST


              Your request has now been considered and I can confirm when a direct payment is made to the Council against a Liability Order held by an Enforcement Agent the EA will be notified of the amount paid so they can account for this in the balance they are collecting.
              - - - Updated - - -

              Fifth one:

              Our Ref: F16/555

              Your Ref:


              This matter is being dealt with by:-


              Information and Records Officer


              Telephone No: (01900) 702898

              Email: foi@allerdale.gov.uk


              1 November 2016



              Dear Mr xxxx



              Freedom of Information Act 2000 – Information Request

              Thank you for your request for information dated 11 October 2016 and received on 11 October 2016. The request has now been considered.

              Our Revenues Manger has confirmed the following:



              When a part payment is received we advise the Enforcement Agents (EA) accordingly of the reduced outstanding balance. When full payment is received, including the EAs own fees, we retain our own amount and send the EA fees directly to them.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

                Number six:

                Alison.Sipson@bolsover.gov.uk

                F/287/1617

                In this scenario, the Enforcement Agent would be advised that a payment of £500 had been received and this would be offset against the total debt accordingly.


                Kind Regards

                Marie Romano
                Information and Policy Officer

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

                  Seventh one:

                  Request 1665/16

                  Bath and North East Somerset Council
                  Request for Information

                  We simply advise the EAs of the payment and they reduce the liability order debt
                  accordingly.
                  - - - Updated - - -

                  And number eight, which completely missed the point:

                  Dear Mr xxx


                  Subject: Freedom of Information - Finance and ICT - Financial Services and Training

                  I refer to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and to your email/ to this service dated 13th October 2016.

                  In accordance with the Freedom of Information Act, we are able to grant access to the records requested and accordingly they are as follows:

                  Where an enforcement agent has been instructed to collect a council tax balance on behalf of the council, and a direct payment is received by the council, the agent is notified of the direct payment who then reflects this on their records.

                  Where a direct payment is received by the council without instructions by the payer, and where there are multiples balances outstanding, the council makes an assessment as to where the payment was intended to be made and allocates the payment accordingly.

                  Should you have any queries regarding the contents of this letter, please contact Gary Simpson on 0191 433 3101.

                  Yours faithfully


                  Gary Simpson

                  Gary Simpson
                  Gateshead Council
                  Customer and Financial Services
                  Tel: 0191 433 3101

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

                    Very interesting responses so far. I look forward to reading the remaining five replies.

                    Once again, thank you.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

                      First that agrees with Milo:

                      Claire.Giles@fdean.gov.uk

                      If a case has been passed to an enforcement agent and the council subsequently receive a payment direct, the enforcement agent is advised of the direct payment and the council will then be charged depending upon where the case is in the process.
                      Eg if a case is at compliance stage and the EA has not received any payments and a £100 direct payment is received, the EA will bill the LA for the compliance stage fee of £75. This amount will then be added to the debtor’s account.

                      Kind regards
                      Claire Giles
                      - - - Updated - - -

                      A copy and paste from NE Derbs - long one:

                      FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT 2000 - INFORMATION REQUEST

                      Reference F/287/1617

                      Your request for information regarding arrears has been considered and, to the best of our knowledge, the information we hold which relates to your request is as follows:

                      Where an enforcement power confers a right to take control of goods and sell them to recover a sum of money, then the enforcement must be conducted in accordance with the procedure in schedule 12 TCE and the regulations made thereunder.

                      Paragraph 1(2) of schedule 12 defines an ‘enforcement power’ as a power to use the procedure in schedule 12 to recover a particular sum. The definition is wider than the taking control of goods.

                      The TCE enforcement regime requires a Notice of Enforcement to be issued as the first stage in the enforcement process, prior to goods being taken into control, subject to an exception where a court order has been obtained. This ‘compliance stage’ is therefore an integral part of the TCE enforcement ‘procedure’.

                      It is therefore not necessary for goods to be taken into control for the provisions of the TCE to apply and this includes with regard to the distribution of monies.

                      The ‘amount outstanding’ is defined at paragraph 50(3) of schedule 12 as the sum of

                      1. The amount of the debt which remains unpaid;
                      2. Any amounts recoverable out of proceeds in accordance with regulations under paragraph 62 (costs)


                      The proceeds from the exercise of an enforcement power must be used to pay the amount outstanding: paragraph 50(1).

                      Proceeds are defined as any of:

                      1. Proceeds of sale or disposal of controlled goods
                      2. Money taken in exercise of the power, if paragraph 37(1) does not apply to it.


                      The compliance stage fee is, in accordance with regulation 5(1) (a) of the TCOG (Fees) Regulations 2014, due and payable from receipt by the EA of the instruction to use the schedule 12 procedure. Therefore, from the point in time when the EA receives the instruction, the sum required to fully settle the liability includes the appropriate fee.

                      Money paid to an Authority following the issue of an instruction to an Enforcement Agent, is clearly money paid, and taken, under compulsion of the Enforcement Power and accordingly any such payment is subject to the TCE procedures.

                      The distribution of funds where an amount less than the full sum outstanding is paid is governed by the regulation 13 of the TCOG (fees) regulations and where relevant to a direct payment, this regulation directs that the payment should be allocated in the following order, compliance fee and then pro rata in payment of the debt and fees.

                      The explanatory note to the TCOG (fees) regulation explains regulations 13 as follows:
                      ‘Regulation 13 provides for the order of application of proceeds where the amount recovered is less than the amount outstanding. Any fees and expenses owed to an auctioneer, and the compliance stage fee for the enforcement agent are prioritised, with the remaining proceeds being divided pro rata between the debt and payment of the remaining fees and disbursements due to the enforcement agent’.

                      The provisions of the TCE stipulate that the fees are due to the Enforcement Agent and also direct how any payments must be allocated, with priority being given to the payment of the compliance stage fee in its entirety, with a pro rata distribution thereafter. This gives effect to the central policy aim of creating a sustainable fee structure.

                      As detailed above, an Enforcement Agent is entitled to the compliance stage fee upon receipt of the instruction and accordingly any payment made after this date must in accordance with the provisions of the TCE be allocated firstly against the relevant fee, regardless of whether an EA has attended and taken control of goods, as the procedure in schedule 12 commences upon receipt of the instruction and the issue of a Notice of Enforcement.

                      The statutory rules governing the distribution of money taken in exercise of the power apply to whoever a payment is made to. Money ‘taken in exercise of the power’ includes any payment made by or on behalf of the debtor. There is no exception that would allow an Authority to deal with a payment other than in accordance with the rules detailed above

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

                        Number three

                        433-16

                        In the example you have provided, the regulations are clear. The first £75 of any payment made should be passed to the enforcement agent to clear the compliance fee. There after payments should be pro-rata’d between Council Tax charge and enforcement agent fee’s.

                        I trust this clarifies the situation.

                        A J Bayliss
                        Transactional Finance Manager



                        Bassetlaw District Council

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

                          Number four



                          2649DDW Council Tax

                          Dear Mr xxx

                          We pass the whole payment to the EA for them to allocate the payment in the correct way between their fees and Council Tax debt.


                          Wyre Forest Freedom of Information

                          Freedom of Information Officer
                          Wyre Forest District Council
                          01562 732151
                          Wyre Forest House, Finepoint Way, Kidderminster, Worcestershire, DY11 7WF

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

                            The refusal was from Wrexham.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

                              Perhaps we could get back to some practical advice for the poster?

                              Originally posted by Bennybully View Post
                              It seems to be every August/September the council tax pass any arrears accounts to bailiffs.
                              That sounds likely. What happens is that in a new council tax year, if you make all the payments on time there won'e be any problems. But if you have had problems in previous years most councils are a LOT quicker to send the current year to the court for a liability order and then send in the bailiffs.

                              Nothing you have said so far has suggested
                              EITHER that that you do not owe the council tax
                              OR that the council has acted incorrectly in dealing with this debt
                              OR that you or someone else in your house is vulnerable and requires extra help in managing debts and avoiding bailiff action,

                              If any of those points do apply, please can you give details what it is so we can look at what your options are with regard to that problem.

                              Otherwise I am going to assume that you do owe the money and the council has followed the correct procedures. In this case it's unlikely that they are going to call the debt back from the bailiffs. If you find a way of paying the council direct, then either they will pass some of it to the bailiffs or the bailiffs will continue to pursue your case to try to recover their fees. Neither of those options is good for you.

                              So it may just be simplest to make an arrangement with the bailiffs to repay the debt. I know that isn't what you want to hear, but it's not clear you have a practical alternative.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Default Notice of immobilisation sticker but no clamp?

                                Originally posted by Jim Bowen View Post

                                Perhaps you could take the time to give your interpretation on the first sentence of the schedule 12 procedure, plus 62(1) of the TCE.
                                It would help visitors if you would provide a link to both sections. I will then gladly assist you with my interpretation.

                                PS: I'm on a train at the moment and having to rely upon my mobile phone.

                                Comment

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