Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

[Nomoneynoproblem]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

We don't yet know what was the employer's stated case for dismissal.

And I think here lies the difficulty in trying to help.

[AuntMay]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

Ive not gone into details of the tribunal because it was months ago and the time to appeal has gone. I am only interested in if they committed fraud by lying in court and if there is anything I can do about that. For it to be fraud I would have though it didn't matter where the lies took place, only that the lies caused a loss to someone. Lying to defend a case is still lying in my book.

[notanotherdonkey]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

That is the trouble it is too many rules& regulations in the courts& law&you have to find the hoops to jump through.The only ones that make money are solicitors,barristers etc they get paid regardless but you always do not.Good luck with your case& hope you win.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

Ive not gone into details of the tribunal because it was months ago and the time to appeal has gone. I am only interested in if they committed fraud by lying in court and if there is anything I can do about that. For it to be fraud I would have though it didn't matter where the lies took place, only that the lies caused a loss to someone. Lying to defend a case is still lying in my book.

Auntmay,

I studied criminal law which included the law of fraud in detail. Fraud is actually a 'theft' type of offence, which is why it could be theft or fraud in some situations. In my view, on the limited information you have provided thus far, ie your employer "lied about 'company training'" is simply not fraudulent and it's police/ prosecution who decide if there is/ was a case to answer on fraud, not the tribunal. It's just very unlikely the police would get involved. If you tried to bring charges of fraud, your employer could sue you for malicious criminal proceeding, which means you'd have to pay damages to him/ her. My advice is let it go, or appeal through the official channels, ie reconsideration (via employ. tribunal), etc.

[AuntMay]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

It was worth exploring just in case, even if it led to nowhere. I will try and get some media interest instead and hand over everything from my case to them. Even if they don't get to the truth I'm sure they'll get a story or two out of it.

[Nomoneynoproblem]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

Auntmay,

I studied criminal law which included the law of fraud in detail. Fraud is actually a 'theft' type of offence, which is why it could be theft or fraud in some situations. In my view, on the limited information you have provided thus far, ie your employer "lied about 'company training'" is simply not fraudulent and it's police/ prosecution who decide if there is/ was a case to answer on fraud, not the tribunal. It's just very unlikely the police would get involved. If you tried to bring charges of fraud, your employer could sue you for malicious criminal proceeding, which means you'd have to pay damages to him/ her. My advice is let it go, or appeal through the official channels, ie reconsideration (via employ. tribunal), etc.

Employment law is totally different from criminal law whilst with the latter you have to prove your case beyond reasonable doubt with the former it's a case of balance of probability. Without having sight of the case in question from my experience the Tribunal judge would have taken all the evidence presented into account and formed an opinion on what was said. I personally cannot see this going any further unless you appeal through the EAT and to do that you will need to demonstrate what part of the judge's judgement is wrong in accordance with the principles of employment law. Merely stating the respondent lied is insufficient grounds for an appeal.


NMNP

[Openlaw15]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

Employment law is totally different from criminal law whilst with the latter you have to prove your case beyond reasonable doubt with the former it's a case of balance of probability. Without having sight of the case in question from my experience the Tribunal judge would have taken all the evidence presented into account and formed an opinion on what was said. I personally cannot see this going any further unless you appeal through the EAT and to do that you will need to demonstrate what part of the judge's judgement is wrong in accordance with the principles of employment law. Merely stating the respondent lied is insufficient grounds for an appeal.


NMNP

He was denied due process, ie the right to cross examine the employer - as the tribunal said, paraphrasing, the employer knows these training matters so we'll leave it there.

[et_lip]

I also lost a ET discrimination claim as their witnesses lied while concealing documentation that would show they lied & prove my case. The documentation has emerged from a third party 6 months after the hearing but the original ET won't allow it to be let in to reconsider the Judgment. The respondent has further lied in a reconsideration hearing to say these weren't their documents but a third party's, in spite of a Judge in another ET case confirming these were their documents in their possession as they attended those committees at the third party. They then shifted the blame for their failure to disclose by blaming me for not being diligent enough in applying for these documents from the third party, in spite of evidence I presented showing the third party was refusing to provide any such material or alluding to its existence, and even said this was because I was in dispute with the respondent. All I seem to be left with is to go to the EAT to say the ET erred in its application of Ladd vs Marshall at the reconsideration hearing in making perverse findings these documents weren't in their possession. If anyone has any better suggestions or appeal ideas let me know.

The sad truth is they failed to disclose documents and lied on oath and were believed like it was Gospel. I was denied a fair hearing but am significantly over the 42 days since the initial Judgment in 2018 to appeal it as would also have the time limit hurdle to get over. Like the original poster, I feel like a victim of fraud and perjury but no idea where to go or how to do something about it. It doesn't help that the Judge has done her bit to sanitise the situation by falsely claiming the evidence they concealed wouldn't have made any difference, when it directly contradicts their statements on oath she so readily believed and made the foundation of her Judgment, without once questioning why they brought no documents to substantiate anything they said. I have lodged complaints at the SRA and might also do so at the Bar Standards but none of that would bring my case back. I was denied a fair hearing.

[Nomoneynoproblem]

In reality lying at a tribunal cannot be considered as fraud.* At the beginning of the tribunal both parties would have affirmed to tell the truth.* The judge and lay members will go on the evidence presented during examination an if they find one party to be economical with the truth they usually take the rest of the evidence with a pinch of salt.

I hope this helps.

*