Issues with tradesman

[Rennell]

Hi everyone,

I organised some home improvement work recently for an elderly relative which we're currently in the middle of, and I could do with a little advice...

The quote was for a set price and incl. materials but did not actually break the job down to show how much was allocated to what (materials, specific parts of the job etc.). We later established start time and time-scale through email. He requested an interval payment schedule (every couple days) and a few hundred pounds prior starting for materials which we agreed to.

So the issues...they haven't been arriving on time, they've not just been late but seriously late on their late visit they were about 3 hours late. I assumed they would be working full days but they're there a couple hours max (not including their 1hr lunch breaks and other breaks). The company had good reviews online so I wasn't expecting this, perhaps they're unaware all of this is getting back to us. My relative has a disability and is there alone with them while they're working the majority of the time. She doesn't like making fuss, prefers to do anything for a easy life and I feel this is being taken advantage of. For example, how can you tell a client who didn't think you were coming because you turned up 3 hours late, without warning, that you "had a heavy night"? There are a couple other explanations we've been given for various things which I feel are off. Regardless she does not want to take them off the job at this point and is eager to just have it completed so she can go back to normal.

As we're paying at intervals I want it to actually be proportionate to the work that's been done and not for them to get the bulk of money before the bulk of the work is complete but I don't have a breakdown for what costs what and they're working irregularly. Materials weren't listed separately in the quote but we paid a separate amount for them and I'd like the receipt for this to make sure the specific products used were the ones agreed as I don't fully trust them at this point.

Thanks in advance,

[Ripped-Off]

Re: Issues with tradesman

Hi everyone,

As we're paying at intervals I want it to actually be proportionate to the work that's been done and not for them to get the bulk of money before the bulk of the work is complete but I don't have a breakdown for what costs what and they're working irregularly. Materials weren't listed separately in the quote but we paid a separate amount for them and I'd like the receipt for this to make sure the specific products used were the ones agreed as I don't fully trust them at this point.

See my thread at http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...acts&highlight=

As a very rough yardstick, I'd say the combined value (not the cost) of the work (including equipment, fixed materials, overheads & profit) in proportion to the number of hours worked will be around £35-£45.00/hr per man outside London and £40-£50.00/hr per man inside London. So for example, if the build is outside London and the builder has 4 men on site (including himself) for 5 days and they work around 35hrs each then 4 x 35hrs x (£35+£45)/2)= £5,600.00. This figure includes the cost of equipment and materials that are fixed. It is only a guide and is likely to fluctuate depending on the value of the materials that are being installed. If the builder comes to you with a bill that is far more, then you might want to look a bit deeper to see why that could be.

I'm confused as to how you paid a separate amount for materials if 'the quote was for a set price and incl. materials'. You can't have a receipt for the materials when you have agreed a fixed price for all of the works (materials & labour) , he has no obligation to tell you the price of the materials. Also, if you haven't specified what materials you want then you will get the cheapest materials available as long as they are fit for the purpose for which they were manufactured.

[Rennell]

Re: Issues with tradesman

I'm confused as to how you paid a separate amount for materials if 'the quote was for a set price and incl. materials'.

He requested an interval payment schedule (every couple days) and a few hundred pounds prior starting for materials which we agreed to.

Yeah I wasn't totally clear - he emailed requested the payment for materials the day before he was due to start. The amount was deducted from the total bill.

Also, if you haven't specified what materials you want then you will get the cheapest materials available as long as they are fit for the purpose for which they were manufactured.

We established the paint brand through email along with specific colours/finish but seemed a bit evasive when I asked for the specific product. I wanted to know exactly which products (I assumed it would be standard at least but not the cheapest) would be used and eventually he confirmed it.

[meellis]

Re: Issues with tradesman

Being a tradesman myself I get a little miffed when I have started a job on an agreed price and timescale and then get a request for a full breakdown it gives the impression that you are about to be shortchanged on an agreement, much like the client is feeling hence asking for the breakdown in the first place. Don't take it the wrong way but the only way to question the breakdown and costing for the job should be prior to the engagement. I can understand the concerns expressed about time keeping and being informed but you haven't mentioned whether they are actually behind schedule or whether the work is substandard which are things that you could question about the contract. As for receipts for the products, why should you know whether they obtained a trade discount and marked up the products like any business would do. Knowing if they used agreed products is a different thing and could be proven without the need for you to see the receipts. A lot a tradesmen are just as nervous as there clients, especially about money, and need to cover their costs as early as possible so if there are questions or delays in payment they have at least only have to wait for there labour charge. As for Ripped offs comment about people getting the cheapest materials, that isn't always true, a lot of tradesmen will prefer to supply materials known to do the job in front of being the cheapest because any serious tradesman doesn't want a bad reputation from premature failure of shoddy materials and they may not want to use the clients recommendations for the same reason but they would generally discuss this before entering into a contract. The true moral for everybody is to truly obtain the required details to level you want before commencement of works.

[Rennell]

Re: Issues with tradesman

The true moral for everybody is to truly obtain the required details to level you want before commencement of works.

This is what I should have done in hindsight, the company had a good overall review on checkatrade and my relative was eager to have the work carried out quickly so I wasn't as scrupulous as I should have been. I was unaware of exactly how checkatrade works and didn't register through the site so now have no way of leaving a review on there which he must also be aware of. After I started having concerns I went thoroughly through his feedback and noticed a few red flags.

When you start to feel uneasy, that someone's being dishonest/evasive/taking liberties etc. then you start to wonder what else they're lying about. They were taking 30/60 min toilet breaks, turning up late and still taking hour long lunch breaks and leaving early, using traffic/getting materials as an excuse for being late, citing van trouble for not turning up for several days repeatedly. The radiators were put back in incorrectly and aren't working properly anymore etc.

I specifically asked which paint he would be using as I suspected just as rippedoff stated that he might be planning to use cheap paint. He mentioned the brand and through email I was able to get him to confirm the exact products. However when they started painting one room, my relative saw them using a different brand, mentioned it and was told it was for the first coat. The door was then closed and none of the agreed brand was seen that day. Using another brand as a first coat doesn't make a whole lot of sense as the room he started in was in pretty good condition (unlike the other areas) and just needed a basic paint and prep.

I was specific about paint because it seemed a bit pointless to have it done professionally with poor paint which wouldn't hold up well. Had he said he would be using the cheapest, we would have requested something better quality and paid the difference (shouldn't have been that much more).

We've asked for receipts for the paint only because of these concerns - apparently they have been discarded, aside from one. The sole one provided doesn't even have the wall paint on it, it barely has anything and is dated after a lot of the painting had already been carried out. I strongly suspect the paint agreed wasn't used or used totally - how can a company like this not keep their receipts or have a trade account?

[Ripped-Off]

Re: Issues with tradesman

When you start to feel uneasy, that someone's being dishonest/evasive/taking liberties etc. then you start to worry where else they're lying about. They were taking 30/60 min toilet breaks, turning up late and still taking hour long lunch breaks and leaving early, using traffic/getting materials as an excuse for being late, citing van trouble for not turning up for several days repeatedly.

I know exactly what you mean. I'll probably get 'lynched' for saying this but many builders (not all) are uneducated, dishonest and inconsiderate. They left school with no qualifications, went to work with their mates on a building site and after 10 years they think they have the skills necessary to open up their own business. Choosing a good builder or a tradesman is a lottery and the odds are stacked against you. Don't get me wrong, there are many good builders and tradesmen, but when their names get mixed in with the bad ones, that is where the lottery begins.

[Rennell]

Re: Issues with tradesman

Are we entitled to partially withhold payment over this paint issue?

[Ripped-Off]

Re: Issues with tradesman

That depends on how clear your contract is on the type of paint to be used.
You can (if applicable) withhold payment on the grounds that the paint used is not the type that was specified and therefore it does not comply with the terms of the contract. The paint specification needn't be in writing for it to be incorporated into the contract, providing there is at least some evidence to support your claim. The law of abatement allows you to reduce the value of the payment to account for the reduced price of the substitute paint and the reduced value that the substitute paint provides, including any drop in performance. For example, the substitute paint may flake after 5 years, whereas a premium paint could last 10 years. Therefore, the need to re-paint after 5 years would have to be valued (somehow) and factored into any payment due.

You cannot withhold all of the payment if the total reduction is less than the amount owing. It would simply be a case of reducing the payment accordingly.