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Thread: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

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  1. #1
    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    canvassing off trade premises

    (a) an activity by an individual ("the canvasser") of soliciting the entry of another individual ("B") into an agreement by making oral representations to B during a visit by the canvasser to any place (other than a place in (b)) where B is, being a visit made by the canvasser for the purpose of making such oral representations.
    (b) a place where a business is carried on (whether on a permanent or temporary basis) by:
    (i) the lender or owner ; or
    (ii) a supplier ; or
    (iii) the canvasser ; or
    (iv) a person who employs the canvasser or has appointed the canvasser as an agent ; or
    (v) B;
    is excluded from (a).
    If the 'off trade premises' is at 'B's home, by invitation, is that 'canvassing off trade premises' ?

    'B' doesn't carry on a business.




    Once I've sussed that I need to know if a broker ( like the guy that comes to sell you windows and signs you up to finance) is a ancilliary credit business ?
    And is the agreement a debtor creditor agreement for purposes of s.49 CCA - or is it a debtor creditor supplier agreement ?

    The 'broker'/'intermediary' has 'No right to canvass off trade premises'

    (I'll ask the next question after I know the answer to those )
    Last edited by Amethyst; 7th June 2016 at 18:24:PM.
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    R0b's Avatar

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    Default Re: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    I think, if reading the first part of your question, the answer is yes.

    The answer to ancillary credit business would probably be a yes also as the person is a broker and will usually fall within the definition of ancillary credit business under the CCA.

    Debtor - creditor (being the broker) - supplier (the business of selling windows)

    The creditor in the above would be someone who has a connection to the supplier and is offering finance to the debtor


    That's how I interpret it anyway
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    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    Sooooo, if a window salesman from company A came to my home and got me to sign a credit agreement with company C (to finance the windows) - he'd be acting as a broker?

    If his CCL was 'no-right to canvas off trade premises' would he be in breach ? ( particularly if I only invited him around to talk windows not loans )
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

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    EXC's Avatar

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    Default Re: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    If the 'off trade premises' is at 'B's home, by invitation, is that 'canvassing off trade premises' ?
    It's not very clear is it? It's not clear who has to make the 'request' (seller or buyer) but I don't think that someone's home can be considered as a temporary place of business on the basis that that's where the business takes place as that would apply to anywhere.

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    R0b's Avatar

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    Default Re: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amethyst View Post
    Sooooo, if a window salesman from company A came to my home and got me to sign a credit agreement with company C (to finance the windows) - he'd be acting as a broker?

    If his CCL was 'no-right to canvas off trade premises' would he be in breach ? ( particularly if I only invited him around to talk windows not loans )

    Well, if you were talking windows only, possibly not as there was no canvassing in entering into a credit/finance agreement. If the windows discussion then went into further discussions of credit/finance then yes that would more likely be a breach.
    DISCLAIMER: AS A PUBLIC FORUM, THE CONTENT POSTED BY ME IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT INTENDED AS LEGAL ADVICE NOR DOES IT CREATE ANY KIND OF SPECIAL OR OTHER RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN YOU AND ME. IF YOU CHOOSE TO FOLLOW ANYTHING THAT I HAVE PUBLISHED THEN YOU DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK AND COST, AND I CANNOT ACCEPT LIABILITY. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO Law Society's Find A Solicitor OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL Citizen's Advice Bureau.


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    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    Quote Originally Posted by EXC View Post
    It's not very clear is it? It's not clear who has to make the 'request' (seller or buyer) but I don't think that someone's home can be considered as a temporary place of business on the basis that that's where the business takes place as that would apply to anywhere.
    I think the buyer has to make the request. And no I don't believe the consumers home can be classed as a place of business.

    I did read somewhere, that I can't bloody find now, that they can get around the 'off trade premises' bit if you request, in writing and sign/date it, for them to come for a second meeting for the sole purpose of them selling you credit.
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    nemesis45's Avatar

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    Default Re: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amethyst View Post
    Sooooo, if a window salesman from company A came to my home and got me to sign a credit agreement with company C (to finance the windows) - he'd be acting as a broker?

    If his CCL was 'no-right to canvas off trade premises' would he be in breach ? ( particularly if I only invited him around to talk windows not loans )
    The words " XXXX Acts as an " introducer only in reference to credit facilities offered by xxxxxx ". Sold windows and advertising space prior to uni so may this has changed but I have seen it on broker agreements.

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    enaid's Avatar

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    Default Re: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    It's not clear so it fits how it suits, simples, as has always been the way with the useless authorities.


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    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    On the loan agreement it states 'Credit Intermediary' and gives the name and address of the company 'that sells the windows'.
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

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    Default Re: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    Rambling Sparkies says
    Section 49 subsections (1) ( 2) (2a) & 2(b) of the CCA 1974 tells you a little bit more I think..........But then this might have been amended Haven't checked that out ...'cos I'm a bit busy

    Sparkie

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    Default Re: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amethyst View Post
    On the loan agreement it states 'Credit Intermediary' and gives the name and address of the company 'that sells the windows'.
    This any use Amethyst?
    http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/..._report_en.pdf

    Sparkie

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    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    Thanks Sparks xx

    Another common form of detriment (across several credit products) arises from
    misleading advertising by credit intermediarie
    s. Typically such misleading advertising
    exploits the borrowers’ limited knowledge of the general market conditions and the role
    credit intermediaries play in the market. From the evidence gathered, typical examples of
    misleading advertising would be where intermediaries attract consumers by offering
    unrealistic offers on credit (for example,
    credit at a zero interest rate by POS
    intermediaries) or induce borrowers to believe that the intermediaries concerned are
    entitled to authorise credit provision even though, in fact, only the lender can make this
    decision.
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

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  13. #13
    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: FCA Rules - Translation needed please.

    Just looking at s.48 / s.49 again and came across this

    There is no equivalent ban on canvassing agreements linked to the purchase of goods or services (debtor-creditor-supplier agreements) or consumer hire agreements
    No right to Canvass Off Trade Premises

    does it apply to debtor-creditor-supplier agreements - in this case a seller of a home learning course visits twice and on second visit gets you to sign an agreement with a third party lender ( so acts as a broker but no broker fee) - Ancilliary credit would be s 153 ?

    153 Definition of canvassing off trade premises (agreements for ancillary credit services).
    F1

    (1)An individual (the “canvasser ”) canvasses off trade premises the services of a person carrying on an ancillary credit business if he solicits the entry of another individual (the “consumer ”) into an agreement for the provision to the consumer of those services by making oral representations to the consumer, or any other individual, during a visit by the canvasser to any place (not excluded by subsection (2)) where the consumer, or that other individual as the case may be, is, being a visit—

    (a)carried out for the purpose of making such oral representations to individuals who are at that place, but

    (b)not carried out in response to a request made on a previous occasion.

    (2)A place is excluded from subsection (1) if it is a place where (whether on a permanent or temporary basis)—

    (a)the ancillary credit business is carried on, or

    (b)any business is carried on by the canvasser or the person whose employee or agent the canvasser is, or by the consumer.
    So if they do do that and we can get through the second visit stuff, can we say agreement entered into with unauthorised broker and thus unenforceable ?
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

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