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Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

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  • #16
    Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

    Well I have spent the evening scouring various acts, regulations and statutory instruments and can't locate the appropriate document.( I trust this wasn't just an exercise!!)
    I think it is probably somewhere in the old Housing Benefit Regs, and just transferred over by reference to its number!
    In other words virtually untraceable.

    Going back to the Scottish Gov pamphlet http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Governmen...tax/leaflets/0
    it seems to me clear that in the scenario you posted there is no liability for council tax in any event.
    Example D
    Two brothers live together and are both severely mentally impaired. They are co-owners of their home. The property will be exempt and there will be no council tax bill.
    AND
    Assuming the carer qualifies they " will not be counted towards the number of adults in the household"

    However that leaflet was published 2003, and updated by
    http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0047/00472023.pdf in 2015

    Have you tried obtaining the info from:
    Council Tax Enquiries
    The Scottish Executive
    Area 3-J
    Victoria Quay
    Edinburgh
    EH6 6QQ

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

      Originally posted by des8 View Post
      Well I have spent the evening scouring various acts, regulations and statutory instruments and can't locate the appropriate document.( I trust this wasn't just an exercise!!)
      I think it is probably somewhere in the old Housing Benefit Regs, and just transferred over by reference to its number!
      In other words virtually untraceable.

      Going back to the Scottish Gov pamphlet http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Governmen...tax/leaflets/0
      it seems to me clear that in the scenario you posted there is no liability for council tax in any event.
      Example D
      Two brothers live together and are both severely mentally impaired. They are co-owners of their home. The property will be exempt and there will be no council tax bill.
      AND
      Assuming the carer qualifies they " will not be counted towards the number of adults in the household"

      However that leaflet was published 2003, and updated by
      http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0047/00472023.pdf in 2015

      Have you tried obtaining the info from:
      Council Tax Enquiries
      The Scottish Executive
      Area 3-J
      Victoria Quay
      Edinburgh
      EH6 6QQ
      Thank you des8, you have got to exactly the same place as I have got to, it has encouraged me greatly to know that I wasn't losing my edge.

      I have been trying to find a searchable copy of the Housing Benefit Regs tonight to try and back reference that but haven't succeeded in that even as yet.

      I have just finished drafting a letter to the address you supplied, I tracked that down about 7pm.

      I will update if I become any further enlightened.

      Thanks again.
      'I don't see why everyone depends on me. I'm not dependable. Even I don't
      depend on me, and I'm me.'

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

        Ok, I think I may have found something useful here.

        Reference Local Government Finance Act 1992 Reg 6.(4)

        Can anyone offer an opinion? Will this be a valid reference in a current dispute?

        http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...9920014_en.pdf
        'I don't see why everyone depends on me. I'm not dependable. Even I don't
        depend on me, and I'm me.'

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

          CONGRATULATIONS ....he who seeks shall find

          So the property is not exempt,persons aren't exempt.... they are just "disregarded" or ignored. (my OH always ignores me.. only joking darling!)

          I don't see why it should not be used, together with Schedule 1 2 (1) of the same act.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

            Originally posted by des8 View Post
            CONGRATULATIONS ....he who seeks shall find

            So the property is not exempt,persons aren't exempt.... they are just "disregarded" or ignored. (my OH always ignores me.. only joking darling!)

            I don't see why it should not be used, together with Schedule 1 2 (1) of the same act.

            A small correction, it is Regulation 75 for Scotland.
            'I don't see why everyone depends on me. I'm not dependable. Even I don't
            depend on me, and I'm me.'

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

              Originally posted by des8 View Post

              So the property is not exempt,persons aren't exempt.... they are just "disregarded" or ignored. (my OH always ignores me.. only joking darling!)
              What?.....sorry, des......um, it's about 5am, I think.................

              CAVEAT LECTOR

              This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

              You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
              Cohen, Herb


              There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
              gets his brain a-going.
              Phelps, C. C.


              "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
              The last words of John Sedgwick

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

                Originally posted by des8 View Post
                CONGRATULATIONS ....he who seeks shall find

                So the property is not exempt,persons aren't exempt.... they are just "disregarded" or ignored. (my OH always ignores me.. only joking darling!)

                I don't see why it should not be used, together with Schedule 1 2 (1) of the same act.
                Hang on, there may be a problem here, I have read this again and I may be misinterpreting it but I think it says that a single resident owner with an SMI remains to be liable. I have copied it with emphasis below to show the route of my assessment.

                I would appreciate anyone's second opinion on this.

                "75 Persons liable to pay council tax.
                (1)The person who is liable to pay council tax in respect of any chargeable dwelling and any day is the person who falls within the first paragraph of subsection (2) below to apply, taking paragraph (a) of that subsection first, paragraph (b) next, and so on.
                (2)A person falls within this subsection in relation to any chargeable dwelling and any day if, on that day—


                (a)he is the resident owner of the whole or any part of the dwelling;
                (b)he is a resident tenant of the whole or any part of the dwelling;

                (c)he is a resident statutory tenant, resident statutory assured tenant or resident [F1Scottish]secure tenant of the whole or any part of the dwelling;

                (d)he is a resident sub-tenant of the whole or any part of the dwelling;

                (e)he is a resident of the dwelling; or

                (f)he is any of the following—
                (i)the sub-tenant of the whole or any part of the dwelling under a sub-lease granted for a term of 6 months or more;

                (ii)the tenant, under a lease granted for a term of 6 months or more, of any part of the dwelling which is not subject to a sub-lease granted for a term of 6 months or more;

                (iii)the owner of any part of the dwelling which is not subject to a lease granted for a term of 6 months or more.


                (3)Where, in relation to any chargeable dwelling and any day, two or more persons fall within the first paragraph of subsection (2) above to apply, they shall be jointly and severally liable to pay the council tax payable in respect of the dwelling and that day.

                (4)Subsection (3) above shall not apply as respects any day on which one or more of the persons there mentioned fall to be disregarded for the purposes of discount [F2either] by virtue of paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 to this Act (the severely mentally impaired) [F3or, being a student, by virtue of paragraph 4 of that Schedule] and one or more of them do not; and liability to pay the council tax in respect of the dwelling and that day shall be determined as follows—

                (a)if only one of those persons does not fall to be so disregarded, he shall be solely liable;

                (b)if two or more of those persons do not fall to be so disregarded, they shall be jointly and severally liable."

                The route I have followed appears to show the disregard in respect of liability only occurs if more than one person sits within that liability hierarchy effectively wiping out the relevance of para (4).

                Please tell me I'm wrong.
                'I don't see why everyone depends on me. I'm not dependable. Even I don't
                depend on me, and I'm me.'

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

                  No, I don't read it that way.
                  IMO what it says is the person liable to pay is (2) the resident owner and (3) if there is more than one they are jointly and severally liable and (4) those who are SMI are disregarded and liability falls to those who are not SMI

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

                    So if the resident owner is SMI would it be correct that they follow the heirarchy down until they find a resident that isn't and they are then regarded as the liable person?
                    'I don't see why everyone depends on me. I'm not dependable. Even I don't
                    depend on me, and I'm me.'

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

                      That is basically how I understand it:
                      If the resident occupier is SMIor student and disregarded they follow the hierarchy down until and if they find someone who is not SMI/disregarded.
                      As that was the 1992 act, I would hope that it also now applies to other disregarded persons eg carers.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

                        I will prepare my argument on that basis and we will find out if our interpretation is correct. I will let the forum know the outcome.

                        Thanks for offering me the opportunity to explore this point.
                        'I don't see why everyone depends on me. I'm not dependable. Even I don't
                        depend on me, and I'm me.'

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

                          My earlier effort at humour notwithstanding (sorry des, I trust you disregarded it! ), I've followed the thread with interest.
                          @Magrew - please let us know how you get on with this.
                          CAVEAT LECTOR

                          This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                          You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                          Cohen, Herb


                          There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                          gets his brain a-going.
                          Phelps, C. C.


                          "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                          The last words of John Sedgwick

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

                            I noted it,just couldn't think of an appropriate publishable response on a site which might be viewed by children or those of a nervous disposition!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

                              Originally posted by des8 View Post
                              I noted it,just couldn't think of an appropriate publishable response on a site which might be viewed by children or those of a nervous disposition!
                              Brilliant?

                              Razer-sharp?

                              Connoisseur of instant wit & repartee?

                              (Just trying to help out here! )
                              CAVEAT LECTOR

                              This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                              You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                              Cohen, Herb


                              There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                              gets his brain a-going.
                              Phelps, C. C.


                              "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                              The last words of John Sedgwick

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

                                b***** off !!!!

                                Comment

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